Goverments Attack on the Disabled?

[Osem]

Exactly. There ought to be more of this sort of thing in order to better educate the wider public about the problems disabled people face.

Sadly, it's not only the able boided who can be abusive to the disabled either. We've experienced some quite nasty comments and behaviour from other disabled people when taking our youngest into the disabled toilets. They assume because he's able bodied he isn't disabled. It's really very hurtful and you'd think they'd know better about making such assumptions....

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Osem

Exactly. There ought to be more of this sort of thing in order to better educate the wider public about the problems disabled people face.

Sadly, it's not only the able boided who can be abusive to the disabled either. We've experienced some quite nasty comments and behaviour from other disabled people when taking our youngest into the disabled toilets. They assume because he's able bodied he isn't disabled. It's really very hurtful and you'd think they'd know better about making such assumptions....

This is a somewhat grey area as disabled loos are generally set out to cope with physical disabilities and these are the people they are designed for.

I have never known any of our MH or LD disabled tenants use the disabled loo at our work when they have been there on a visit

[peanut]

Originally Posted by Osem

There's no doubt that the geuniely sick and dsiabled can be stigmatised but I'd have thought removing the malingerers from the lists and putting those who would seek to do likewise from trying in the first place ought to reduce that stigma. If the Blue Badge scheme was such that it was impossible to abuse, then I believe the vast majority of people wouldn't have a problem with those who use it. It's the abuse of the system which hurts the genuinely sick/disabled a) because they're treated with suspicion and sometimes worse by people who don't believe they're genuine and b) because the resources wrongly taken by those defrauding the system are no longer available for the genuinely needy.

IMHO HMG has a duty to reform the system to make it fairer for those who really need it. Sadly, that'll involve reassessing a lot of people but there's no way around that. All we can hope is that common sense prevails and that the real effort is put into sorting out the dubious cases as opposed to those which are clearly in no doubt.

Whilst I will say I agree with your sentiments, what you say is pretty much what most people will say, but the real truth behind it all is far from it.

There isn't any common sense here, that's long gone, it's now a case of doom and gloom and the rest that goes with it. The genuine are living in fear when they should be helped, having people say it time and time again, it shouldn't be that way as doesn't make anything any easier.

Every single genuine case will want change, to stop those that are fraudulent etc, they want change that will help their case, to make it easier without jumping through many hoops and without fear that a suit will pass judgement within 10 minutes of meeting you. I don't see the point in these tests as it's not in the benefit of the claimant, it's not to help just to save money only.

Many people won't see the point in living and being a burden on those that are already pushed to their limits.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Angua

This is a somewhat grey area as disabled loos are generally set out to cope with physical disabilities and these are the people they are designed for.

I have never known any or our MH or LD disabled tenants use the disabled loo at our work when they have been there on a visit

Our lad can't use non disabled public toilets as he had no concept of personal hygiene, safety etc. and we have to be with him a) to supervise/assist and b) in case he has a seizure. Severe disability comes in many forms and the disabled really ought to appreciate that more than anyone.

---------- Post added at 13:56 ---------- Previous post was at 13:35 ----------

Originally Posted by peanut

Whilst I will say I agree with your sentiments, what you say is pretty much what most people will say, but the real truth behind it all is far from it.

There isn't any common sense here, that's long gone, it's now a case of doom and gloom and the rest that goes with it. The genuine are living in fear when they should be helped, having people say it time and time again, it shouldn't be that way as doesn't make anything any easier.

Every single genuine case will want change, to stop those that are fraudulent etc, they want change that will help their case, to make it easier without jumping through many hoops and without fear that a suit will pass judgement within 10 minutes of meeting you. I don't see the point in these tests as it's not in the benefit of the claimant, it's not to help just to save money only.

Many people won't see the point in living and being a burden on those that are already pushed to their limits.

Well, as parents of a child who'll need lifelong care, we really do appreciate and share some of your concerns. The less abuse of the system there is, however, the fewer the excuses there will be for the 'suits' of whom you speak and dodgy newspapers to tar everyone with that brush and the more resources there'll be for the genuine.

[Angua]

It is harder when there is no obvious sign of disability as many with long term LD or MH problems will testify. These people will be known to local LD & MH teams so some thought should be given to the expertise of these people when care levels are re-assessed.

Osem you will not hear me or i believe any genuine claimant ever say the system is perfect or that it doesn't need to be reformed but the blanket way they are doing it is completely ridiculous it really is. There is an easy effective way to cut down the number of assessments needed and saving a very large amount of cash in the process by involving those health professionals that already deal with and are aware of the problems of many genuine claimants. Most fraudsters never see a consultant or if they do try and blag it do not succeed for very long before being found out and kicked off said consultants list so there is the start point.

Atos is a gaping chasm into which millions if not tens of millions of taxpayers money has gone and will continue to go and they are simply incompetent in every way that matters so to save 4-5k a year in benefit on a cheat your willing to pay them at least that amount and sometimes much more to kick someone off it really doesn't make any financial sense at all. This is pandering of the worst kind by this government to a section of our society that will never be happy while there is a single person claiming benefit be it me or your son.

I could probably stomach all of this a little easier if they had announced plans to go after the tax evader's who cost this country as much a year as the entire welfare budget but again we hear nothing on that and the daily hate is also completely silent on that issue. I have said many times in the past i am grateful to every single person who is working and in doing so enables me to be taken care of on the state but there comes a point where i am also sick and tired of being guilty by association with a tiny minority who abuse the system.

I hate and despise them more then taxpayers do because of people like them i have two hurdles to overcome when i look for work i have to overcome my disability and then if i can do that i have to convince an employer that i am not going to get the job have it for a bit and hop back on the sick because i am one of the **** that had to get a job or lose everything. Media like the daily mail do what they do on purpose they exaggerate the problem and in doing so make it virtually impossible for any claimant to get a job because of the stigma they stick on us.

There are things that both need to be done and can be done easily to reform the benefits system but the course this government has chosen is not one of them and i seriously have my doubts about how successful this will be given how incompetent atos is the fraudsters will probably be quite successful in conning them as most of the people doing the assessments will not be fully medically trained. Will be even more limited in their knowledge of many illness's and this will end up costing the country a lot more then benefit fraud truly does and achieve no real change in the numbers of fraudsters but will put many genuine through months of hell.

Some of those people will not live through it because they have simply had enough and just don't want to carry on living like this i know there are times where i feel like that.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Osem you will not hear me or i believe any genuine claimant ever say the system is perfect or that it doesn't need to be reformed but the blanket way they are doing it is completely ridiculous it really is. There is an easy effective way to cut down the number of assessments needed and saving a very large amount of cash in the process by involving those health professionals that already deal with and are aware of the problems of many genuine claimants. Most fraudsters never see a consultant or if they do try and blag it do not succeed for very long before being found out and kicked off said consultants list so there is the start point.

Atos is a gaping chasm into which millions if not tens of millions of taxpayers money has gone and will continue to go and they are simply incompetent in every way that matters so to save 4-5k a year in benefit on a cheat your willing to pay them at least that amount and sometimes much more to kick someone off it really doesn't make any financial sense at all. This is pandering of the worst kind by this government to a section of our society that will never be happy while there is a single person claiming benefit be it me or your son.

I could probably stomach all of this a little easier if they had announced plans to go after the tax evader's who cost this country as much a year as the entire welfare budget but again we hear nothing on that and the daily hate is also completely silent on that issue. I have said many times in the past i am grateful to every single person who is working and in doing so enables me to be taken care of on the state but there comes a point where i am also sick and tired of being guilty by association with a tiny minority who abuse the system.

I hate and despise them more then taxpayers do because of people like them i have two hurdles to overcome when i look for work i have to overcome my disability and then if i can do that i have to convince an employer that i am not going to get the job have it for a bit and hop back on the sick because i am one of the **** that had to get a job or lose everything. Media like the daily mail do what they do on purpose they exaggerate the problem and in doing so make it virtually impossible for any claimant to get a job because of the stigma they stick on us.

There are things that both need to be done and can be done easily to reform the benefits system but the course this government has chosen is not one of them and i seriously have my doubts about how successful this will be given how incompetent atos is the fraudsters will probably be quite successful in conning them as most of the people doing the assessments will not be fully medically trained. Will be even more limited in their knowledge of many illness's and this will end up costing the country a lot more then benefit fraud truly does and achieve no real change in the numbers of fraudsters but will put many genuine through months of hell.

Some of those people will not live through it because they have simply had enough and just don't want to carry on living like this i know there are times where i feel like that.

You really do have our sincere sympathies. We feel likewise sometimes when coping with our lad almost becomes too much. We all just have to hope and pray that the powers that be ensure that whatever assessments are going to be undertaken are done so with understanding and humanity. The fact that so much has been done so poorly in the past ought to help ensure a fairer system now. We're trying to be positive about all of this as that's the only way we can cope and I won't be assuming the worst about any of this just yet. Of course I appreciate the experience you and others like you have been through may have given you a very different outlook from ours however.

[TheDaddy]

IIRC I heard IDS saying the other day that he was going to make work pay, how do you do that if you aren't going to increase wages, decrease benefits to make work look more attractive perhaps!? We are all in this together alright, it's just some are more in it than others and it'll always be the genuine, honest claimant that gets hit because put simply they aren't lying, crooked, thieves that know all the answers and can stop themselves being manipulated by shysters.

Years ago I was part of the trial for the welfare to work scheme, it went very well and we helped a lot of people that were capable into work after years of being left to rot with no help or support, trouble is we were expensive to employ, knew what we were doing and had no targets to achieve, if the people that followed us running the scheme and its varients could say the same they'd have my support...

[Osem]

I may be wrong and we haven't been through this personally yet, but I thought the basic idea was to ensure that people could earn more in work before their benefits were affected.

Sadly, it's always the honest who get adversely affected by the actions of the dishonest thought isn't it. All our lives and freedoms are impinged upon in some way because of those who're willing to break the law, lie, cheat, etc. etc.

[devilincarnate]

Well can I say that after it took nearly 2 years to get the DLA for my son who has AUTISM, SEVERE GLOBAL DEVELOPMENT DELAY and possible ADHD. That all the system need a overhaul as when me and my partner first started to claim they just threw it out and we had all the consultant letters and also the psychologists letters to say how much care he needed.
We finally got it and have to say that the biggest bug-bear for me is that when you go to the supermarket and you see people parking in the disabled spots and getting out of a 4x4and running about ( nearly most disabled people would need a stair-lift to get in a 4x4 ) SORRY IT IS MY RANT AT THE BLUE BADGE SCHEME.

I can sympathise with the people who have said that it it hard to cope and I am one of them as there seems to be no-where to turn at certain points and it seems that it will only get worse.

Let us get a disabled PM and lets see what will happen in regards to what is happening now and before.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Osem

There's no doubt that the geuniely sick and dsiabled can be stigmatised but I'd have thought removing the malingerers from the lists and putting those who would seek to do likewise from trying in the first place ought to reduce that stigma. If the Blue Badge scheme was such that it was impossible to abuse, then I believe the vast majority of people wouldn't have a problem with those who use it. It's the abuse of the system which hurts the genuinely sick/disabled a) because they're treated with suspicion and sometimes worse by people who don't believe they're genuine and b) because the resources wrongly taken by those defrauding the system are no longer available for the genuinely needy.

IMHO HMG has a duty to reform the system to make it fairer for those who really need it. Sadly, that'll involve reassessing a lot of people but there's no way around that. All we can hope is that common sense prevails and that the real effort is put into sorting out the dubious cases as opposed to those which are clearly in no doubt.

In a perfect world we would have a system that can weed out the cheaters and still be fair to those who need it, however it seems noone can find a method to do this without a sledgehammer, this will and is ultimately kicking off people in genuine need of help. These people I expect simply sign up for JSA instead (without ability to find work), this will be an escalated problem when JSA gets tightened up some more as the lack of work related activity will come to the forefront.

I think you have to have been part of the system (a claimant or ex claimant) or have personally known/dealt with claimants to understand how wrong the changes are, to people who have had no experience of it, the changes may seem perfectly legit but they not, they are deliberatly designed to kick needy people off as to save money and gain public favour. If it were a choice between ensuring everyone who needs the help gets it easily (it shouldnt be too hard to successfully claim, remember these people are ill), but some slip thru illegally and making more scammers caught but some in need get nothing, then the former is far preferable. The former taxpayers pick up the bill whilst the latter the most vulnerable in soicety pay the price.

The medicals for a start are too short and swift and maybe irregular to give a proper accurate result, as said earlier if someone is seeing a consulatant and especially over a period of many months then that is a strong sign something is wrong with them, consultants treat their time very valuably and will discharge patients who are deemed to not need their help, there is cirumstances where someone wont be seeing a consultant so isnt all black and white but certianly if someone is there is no need to waste cash on medicals and appeals for them.

For what its worth medicals are very expensive to supply, atos origin get billions a year to do services for the government, appeals also cost a lot of money and these new assessments as you may guess appeals have gone through the roof with more than half of claimants winning the appeal. If someone ever wins a court case and compensation over these new rules then the government will then potentially lose big time as there would be a domino affect from that. Atos have been using nurses or even admin staff to carry out some medicals as well.

I also note a change of mental thinking on sickness and benefits.

IB had specific long term needs of claimants in mind when it was brought in (by a tory government I should add), it has a long term rate which pays more than JSA, in addition to age addition payments (further top ups for younger people). JSA is deliberatly paid out at a very low level as a way to discourage people from wanting to stay on it, its not really an amount someone can live off on the long term, those who manage it tend to either be living somewhere else where someone else pays the bills or also have children and get more generous child related benefits. IB of course is something that has to let someone survive on it long term so has always paid out more (on the long term rate). This universal credit will treat both benefits the same, and whether you off work between jobs with short term needs or have a chronic condition that will last for life keeping you out of work, you will get the same financial help, the reason been the government now is pushing out the mindset that there is no one who needs long term sickness benefits, they want to believe there is no such situation and that everyone can work with only short term illnesses. This is a worrying path that scares me.

[PeteLockwood]

the genuinely disabled ? there is that many fakers i bet they dont know who is who, but for example, if somebody is in a wheelchair what iswrong with a job at a desk ? or a till ? should that be a free meal ticket for say there 80 year life ? things such as autism downs etc rightly so should be excluded but PHYSICAL disability there is always an option.

[dilli-theclaw]

Well that told me!

[PeteLockwood]

im not "telling" anybody i am merely passing my tohughts on this so called attack on the disabled

[dilli-theclaw]

As I said - that told me.