Muslims should expect to be stopped....

Originally Posted by andyl

Think there's some confusion about 'integration' which enables cultural traditions to be maintained within a wider society, and 'assimilation' which requires effective renunciation of cultural heritage. The Scots, for example, may be assertively Scottish and yet integrated within English society.

A very valid point. Integration is that fine give-and-take that allows each to hold on to their individual cultural identity, while also subscribing to the national identity.

It is easy to be suspicious of those that seem not to share our national and/or cultural identity.
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Originally Posted by Graham

Why did they have "no other choice"? Or was it that, as the next generation came along, they *became* part of British Society?

That was the point I made - The British were less inclined to make allowances and expected immigrants to fit into the british way of life.

Originally Posted by Graham

So what *is* "British indigenous culture"?

Sunday roast with beef, Pork, Lamb - whatever. Maybe a pint in the pub.
I could probably think of more if I tried - but even these simple things are quintessentially British - you won't find them in Germany, Holland or France.

And there are already at least 2 things in that list you couldn't share with a Muslim.

Originally Posted by Graham

And you don't grass your mates up to the Police, teacher, whoever, no matter whether you're black, white, asian or anything else.

Don't try to imply that this is *exclusive* to Muslims.

Maybe you would protect your 'mates' - although I'd think a lot less of anyone who protected their 'mates' from justice if that was what they deserved. There are some things we can accept from no-one.

But we're talking about extending that protection to people you might barely know, simply because of religion. (Even when the crime that person has committed is against that religion!)

Originally Posted by Graham

Nice to see things have changed so much (at least in regard to Muslims)!



Why did they have "no other choice"? Or was it that, as the next generation came along, they *became* part of British Society?



So what *is* "British indigenous culture"?
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1) I wasn't aware of the name, thank you for the information.

2) The only "disrespect" there is directed at those who *would* stop someone because they match a certain description and I doubt very much whether they would know or even *care* what the hat was called.



There is also a part of the legal process called "reasonable grounds for suspicion".

The quote that was in response to was "They are looking for a threat from islamic fanatics," now do you assume that *everyone* who looks and dresses a certain way is a potential fanatic? Well, you'd have to if you're going to question them and consider them a suspect...!!!



Whoops, there goes a fast one...! Catch it, quick...!!!

Your statement above is *exactly* the sort of thing that I "feel that way", because you are making an *ASSUMPTION* that these people "support Abu Hamza and his terrorist supporting views" without any *EVIDENCE*!!!

Errmmm the fact that there were gathering of people that stilloccured when hamza preached outside the finsbury park mosque, you know when he was kicked out. There were people there backing him.
Its not hard to read into, death to the infidel, death to america.
Unless I'm very much mistaken, or the English language has changed dramatically in the last few months, those slogans mean, death to the infidel, death to america. Sounds pretty much like a radical view.

As for supporters check this link:-

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...phy/Masri.html

And it quotes a bibliography of sources.
Many of them from Yemen.

And you don't grass your mates up to the Police, teacher, whoever, no matter whether you're black, white, asian or anything else.

Don't try to imply that this is *exclusive* to Muslims.

Ermm, hang on a minute, wouldnt that be a presumption on your part that no one here has grassed anyone up?
And we arent always talking about mates, or does every person know everbody else personalkly enough to call them "mates".

I've grassed friends up, when they have done wrong. Fortunately for me, my friends know when they have done wrong 99% of the time.

Originally Posted by andyl

Personally though, I think this debate has run its course as little in the way of fresh ideas are being brought to the table from either side.

Amen to that.

[allieyoung666]

I think it is time to call it a day, as there will be no winners or no losers!!!! everyone is entitled to their bit okay!!!!

Originally Posted by Graham

I
I thought it was that people were using the fact that someone being Islamic is seemingly enough to suspect them of being a potential terrorist...

Would you honestly and truthfully be saying that if a person with ginger hair a kilt and claymore was stopped because he looked scottish?

Or a man walking down street with leeks and clogs being stopped because he looked Welsh?

Graham, I do accpet our views are extremely different in these cases (but not always ALL the time). But I do sense that a lot of what shapes your views does come down to their race. For example, I am under the distinct impression that because they are black and muslim, you will jump to their defence, no matter what.
Whilst I often fail to see the side you obviously do, I do think that you fail to see what any repercussions could be should we ignore the fact.

What is right?
What is wrong?

We both are almost certainly in the wrong in our views. The right choice would be somewhere down the middle. However that choice isnt always possible.
There is a growing problem, yes the problem is fundementally an islamic one. But the islamic groups need to realise that whilst they cover for the behaviour of their kind, in the name of their religion, its inevitable that they are all, at some point, going to be regarded with suspicion. And whilst that happens, the powers of stop and search will be used.

[allieyoung666]

End now !!!!!

Originally Posted by allieyoung666

End now !!!!!

Sorry but due to work commitments I havent yet managed to say what my thoughts are.

If the thread is to be closed, I must protest that because of work I cannot post at the same time as others.

[allieyoung666]

Close it becasue it is like a dog chasing its tail!!!!!

[danielf]

Originally Posted by allieyoung666

Close it becasue it is like a dog chasing its tail!!!!!

No-one is asking you to read it...

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Graham

And you don't grass your mates up to the Police, teacher, whoever, no matter whether you're black, white, asian or anything else.

Don't try to imply that this is *exclusive* to Muslims.

Excuse me but when did I imply such a thing?

Originally Posted by allieyoung666

Close it becasue it is like a dog chasing its tail!!!!!

Sorry, but that's not your decision. However, it is starting to get a little heated in here so maybe a few people should step back and take a rest. You know who you are.

[Seti]

Originally Posted by me283

Ah, I wondered how long it would take to mention that old chestnut "Islamophobia". Do you think Andy is showing "Policephobia" when he mentions the SUS laws (which I do remember)? Or am I guilty of "Liberalphobia" by disagreeing with him? Ye Gods, you'll be shouting "racist" next.

Nope I am just commenting on what I am reading. I can't say your a liberalophbic me283, I just find some of the coments on here insane when really we are just debating a difference of opinion. Mind you I oculd be a conservativeophobic :-P

Originally Posted by ScareWebWarrior

A very valid point. Integration is that fine give-and-take that allows each to hold on to their individual cultural identity, while also subscribing to the national identity.

It is easy to be suspicious of those that seem not to share our national and/or cultural identity.

But they do. Well ok Muslims do in my part of the World. I was following a car today from outside my local comprehensive school. (No I wasn't stalking ) Muslim ladies were wearing the Welsh Football shirt and had a Welsh flag on the back of their car. Brought a tear to my eye it did. So I guess they subscribe to the Welshness of Wales Ain't so sure about the Islamic individuals living in Bradford or Oldham, there seems to be a lot of racial tension there because no one really understands Islam. I don't claim to either but I enjoy hearing others cultral beliefs, values and norms.

I also believe that we should protect that as far as possible. I dont' know maybe I am old-fashioned but I see targetting *ONE* small section of the Islamic community wrong. Don't target those of Middle Easter appearance target them ALL. I amsure there would be a public outcry then.

Islam is an old Ottoman tradition as far as I know. The religion has a history steeped in goodness. I have to concur that this religion was changed a lot and its concepts and meanings changed to suit other aspects of religion and power and control. Take the Sunni's and Shi'ites for example, One sect believes in the way of Mohammed and the other belives in the way of his brother Ali. They have very different cultral identities.

I would think (and its only an opinion so don't kill me unless you use a funny smilie) that moving to somewhere as WEternized as Britain or America must be a BIG culture shock. For starters, how do they learn to cook ? What foods do they buy that are consistent with their religion ? Where do some of them end up ? Estates on badly maintained local housing areas with other people of Islamic desent ? how do they learn what our norms, value and beliefs are if we stop integrating these people now ? If we arrest on site and interrogate or detain how are they learning anything new from our way of living ? I just think a lot .

Sian

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

That was the point I made - The British were less inclined to make allowances and expected immigrants to fit into the british way of life.

I think you miss the point. Kids have the knack of picking up whatever they are exposed to and will tend to "fit in" with what's around them. It often causes trouble in their community when their parents try to force them into a different cultural mould. Eventually they come to an accommodation between the two cultures.

Sunday roast with beef, Pork, Lamb - whatever. Maybe a pint in the pub.
I could probably think of more if I tried - but even these simple things are quintessentially British - you won't find them in Germany, Holland or France.

So those are *some* things that *some* British people do. However they're not obligatory to be "British" are they? Nor are supporting Man Utd/ Liverpool/ Arsenal/ whoever, or watching cricket or going Morris Dancing or going to church on a Sunday or...

And there are already at least 2 things in that list you couldn't share with a Muslim.

I don't drink. I can't remember the last time I ate Roast Pork, does that make me "not British"? Of course not.

Originally Posted by Graham

And you don't grass your mates up to the Police, teacher, whoever, no matter whether you're black, white, asian or anything else.

Don't try to imply that this is *exclusive* to Muslims.

Maybe you would protect your 'mates' - although I'd think a lot less of anyone who protected their 'mates' from justice if that was what they deserved. [/quote]

The point I was trying to make is not what *I* would necessarily do, but that there exist in many cultures/ groups "rules" that you don't drop your mates in the cacky. I also didn't say that it was a good thing.

There are some things we can accept from no-one.

And especially not from group (insert name here).

But we're talking about extending that protection to people you might barely know, simply because of religion. (Even when the crime that person has committed is against that religion!)

I suggest you ask a Freemason about his pledge to support and assist other Masons and the number of senior Policemen who allegedly shake hands in a peculiar manner...

Or how about members of the Black community who will help a "Brother" against "Whitey" simply based on their skin colour...

Or... There are many more examples of people who would "extend protection" to someone else based on what are, frankly, very subjective criteria.

This is *not* exclusive to Muslims.
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Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Errmmm the fact that there were gathering of people that stilloccured when hamza preached outside the finsbury park mosque, you know when he was kicked out. There were people there backing him.
Its not hard to read into, death to the infidel, death to america.
Unless I'm very much mistaken, or the English language has changed dramatically in the last few months, those slogans mean, death to the infidel, death to america. Sounds pretty much like a radical view.

It also sounds like Freedom of Speech. Not a very responsible or sensible use of it, but, none the less, Freedom of Speech.

Yet I didn't actually hear about the Police taking those who went to hear him preach into custody or questioning them "just in case" they were terrorists...

As for supporters check this link:-

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...phy/Masri.html

You're looking at a *Jewish* site for opinions about Muslims?

Great idea!

Now how about looking at a BNP site for opinions about Blacks? I'm sure you'll find more equally open minded and unbiased commentary on there...!!

Ermm, hang on a minute, wouldnt that be a presumption on your part that no one here has grassed anyone up?
And we arent always talking about mates, or does every person know everbody else personalkly enough to call them "mates".

See my comments above.

[Xaccers]

Could someone please point out the post where it was claimed that only muslims protect each other from the law as I can't see it?

Originally Posted by Graham

You're looking at a *Jewish* site for opinions about Muslims?

Great idea!

Now how about looking at a BNP site for opinions about Blacks? I'm sure you'll find more equally open minded and unbiased commentary on there...!!

Ah so because it's a jewish site it must be biased and full of lies with no truths at all?
WTF?

http://memri.org/aboutus.html

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Would you honestly and truthfully be saying that if a person with ginger hair a kilt and claymore was stopped because he looked scottish?

Or a man walking down street with leeks and clogs being stopped because he looked Welsh?

What on Earth are you on about? I don't see many people walking down the street dressed like that, do you? However I *do* see people dressed in "Islamic" clothing, yet, somehow, I don't automatically think "maybe they're a terrorist someone should question or search them!"

Graham, I do accpet our views are extremely different in these cases (but not always ALL the time). But I do sense that a lot of what shapes your views does come down to their race. For example, I am under the distinct impression that because they are black and muslim, you will jump to their defence, no matter what.

Then you would be utterly *UTTERLY* wrong and I would have to say that you have completely failed to understand a word I have been saying.

I don't give a *damn* about race. Nor colour, nor creed, nor clothing, nor which football team they support.

What I *DO* care about is *PREJUDICE*, those who *would* judge someone based on any or all of the above or any other subjective criteria and *RIGHTS*, because if we take rights away from just *one* group, we are on a very dangerous path as history has demonstrated time and time again.

If someone said "we should arrest anyone who calls themselves 'timewarrior2001' because it's a silly name" I would be standing up for *your* rights just as much as I would stand up for *anyone's* rights, no matter what.

Whilst I often fail to see the side you obviously do, I do think that you fail to see what any repercussions could be should we ignore the fact.

On the contrary, I am well aware of what people claim the repercussions could be (letting terrorists in, letting them commit atrocities etc) but it seems that those self-same people "fail to see the side I obviously do" because they cannot see the dangers present in presuming that *one* particular group is less deserving of rights than everyone else.

There is a growing problem, yes the problem is fundementally an islamic one. But the islamic groups need to realise that whilst they cover for the behaviour of their kind, in the name of their religion, its inevitable that they are all, at some point, going to be regarded with suspicion. And whilst that happens, the powers of stop and search will be used.

And, once again, you make incorrect assumptions and sweeping generalisations that will only make the problem *WORSE*.

Yes, there are *SOME* Muslims who will "cover for the behaviour of their kind" (hmm, "their kind", another great generalisation!), just as some blacks will support their "brothers" against the White Man and so on, but there are also many who deplore the atrocities committed in the name of their religion and who will do everything they can to see them brought to justice.

However there is also a *third* group, the "undecideds" for want of a better term who think "well, I shouldn't cover for these people, but if I'm going to get hassled by ignorant unbelievers who want to give me grief simply because I worship in a Mosque or wear certain clothes or look a particular way or have a beard, why the hell should I be bothered to help them?"

Now the question becomes "what do *we* do"? Do we develop policies to get them on *our* side? Or do we, instead, treat them as suspects which is more likely to drive them to the "other" side?

I know which I think is more sensible.

What about you?
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Originally Posted by Xaccers

Excuse me but when did I imply such a thing?

Originally Posted by Xaccers

If an asian has broken the law there is likely to be a wall of silence while the suspect is rushed out of the country.
It happens a lot in rape/murder cases.
Several of the Muslims I work with have commented that the intelligence services will find it hard to recruit Muslims in the war against terror because it is seen as betraying your brother to turn them in.

This sort of behaviour happens in *many* groups as I said above, not just in asian/ Muslim communities as you mention.
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Originally Posted by Xaccers

Ah so because it's a jewish site it must be biased and full of lies with no truths at all?

Did I say that? No, I didn't. You're complaining I'm implying things into your messages that you didn't say, yet then you go and do exactly the same thing!

The point is that there is little love lost between many sections of the Jewish and Islamic communities. Picking a single example like that doesn't necessarily provide proof by any means.

ADDENDUM: PS thanks for the red rep based on your straw man argument!