Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

How - you said that people of a reasonable disposition didn’t need to ask that question.

The obvious corollary of that is that by asking the question, the questioner isn’t of a reasonable disposition.

If that’s not what you meant, what did you mean?

What I meant is what I said - leaving others, including you, to make of that what they will.

Why would you want to draw me out on this?

Because of your consistent equivocation on the subject - if what you say what you said is what you meant, so as previously stated, the corollary of that is obviously what you meant as well…

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Because of your consistent equivocation on the subject - if what you say what you said is what you meant, so as previously stated, the corollary of that is obviously what you meant as well…

The corollary doesn't add to the substance of the topic.

My point in the debate is around the central issue of antisemitism, not the corollary you so pedantically wish to pursue.

It's no coincidence that the title of this thread includes three entities committed to destruction of Israel and its Jews.

It is a tragedy that their proxies, plus seasoned antisemites, plus gullible youth should take to the streets in such numbers that they intimidate our Jewish population. There are c. 300,00 Jews in the UK and 4 million Muslims. In the earlier days the pro-Palestine/Hamas demonstrators outnumbered the entire UK Jewish population.

Antisemitism in the UK is out of control and all @The Daddy can do is to blame Israel for what's happening here. Sure, that's what the pro-Palestinians are using to justify their demonstrations. But the murder of several Jews at the hands of Muslims and other terrorist acts is the true indicator of what's going on.

Obviously, more drivel from me.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Obviously, more drivel from me.

Something we all can agree on.

[45rpm]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Fair enough - possibly. But it seems to me that everyone else, or at least everyone of a reasonable disposition, didn't need to ask that question.

To add some colour, though:

1/
Israel was murderously attacked on 7-Oct-23. 1200+ brutally murdered and hundreds of innocent people abducted by Hamas terrorists to Gaza.

2/
Israel then attacked Hamas targets, with significant collateral civilian damage as the assault progressed. Hamas used the civilian population as shields, for example tunnel entrances in schools or hospitals.

3/
As this dragged on, the destruction as shown on TV attracted criticism from all quarters through application of the vague term "proportionate".

So - what is proportionate to what Hamas did? What is "proportionate" about not wiping Hamas out - who are ideologically and suicidally obsessed with murdering Israelis and Jews?

4/
That brings us to the UK. It is well known that antisemites more-or-less equate Israelis with all Jews; the "who would you cheer at a football match" syndrome.

5/
As soon as 09-Oct-23, the Jew haters were out on London's streets with their infamous banners wishing genocide on Israeli Jews. Anti-Jewish hate incident took place immediately, including physical violence on Jews.

6/
With the most recent incidents appearing to become common, it is very clear that Jew haters are coming out of the woodwork and equally clear that the government doesn't know how to deal with it (given the Muslim vote in Labour constituencies).

7/
So, there you have it. Jews are being murdered by people of alien ideology. Nobody is murdering Muslims in the UK. The government is "appalled", "there is no place for antisemitism in the UK", "our thoughts and prayers ..."; all weasel words.

What is worse, the impressionable teenagers find it easy to criticise Israel to the extent of distaste for British Jews

Oh yes - the enemy is already here in critical mass, and still coming.

How much of what I've said above is drivel @TheDaddy?

I agree with all of the above. However what you forgot to say was: Israel left Gaza some 20 years back; this was like a reverse ethnic cleansing. Yes 100% of Israelis left the Strip.

The Gazans had a golden opportunity to develop farms, factories, etc. Instead they chose to become world leaders in rocket technology and tunnel building. Even worse, they decided to store their arms caches under schools and hospitals.

Bizarrely the anti-Zionists accuse Israel of being an "apartheid state" and a "terrorist state". Surely that description fits Gaza exactly.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by 45rpm

I agree with all of the above. However what you forgot to say was: Israel left Gaza some 20 years back; this was like a reverse ethnic cleansing. Yes 100% of Israelis left the Strip.

The Gazans had a golden opportunity to develop farms, factories, etc. Instead they chose to become world leaders in rocket technology and tunnel building. Even worse, they decided to store their arms caches under schools and hospitals.

Bizarrely the anti-Zionists accuse Israel of being an "apartheid state" and a "terrorist state". Surely that description fits Gaza exactly.

With sanctions on Gaza, Israel has intentionally prevented it developing. Israelis may have left Gaza but they're now illegally land-grabbing in the West Bank instead.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

With sanctions on Gaza, Israel has intentionally prevented it developing. Israelis may have left Gaza but they're now illegally land-grabbing in the West Bank instead.

Really? Surely "sanctions on Gaza" by Israel are a counter-terrorism measure.

And yes - it doesn't help that Israel is "illegally land-grabbing in the West Bank".

But, and here is more drivel, obviously, it doesn't justify the antisemitism taking place in the UK by Islamist provocateurs.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Really? Surely "sanctions on Gaza" by Israel are a counter-terrorism measure.

And yes - it doesn't help that Israel is "illegally land-grabbing in the West Bank".

But, and here is more drivel, obviously, it doesn't justify the antisemitism taking place in the UK by Islamist provocateurs.

Totally agree - Jewish people (anywhere in the World) should not be held responsible for the actions of the Israeli Government.

It is wrong when provocateurs blame an entire community for the actions of a few.

[Sephiroth]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ld-of-britain/

Here is the nub of the matter - selected quote follows:

How anti-Semitism was allowed to take hold of Britain

David Feldman, a historian of anti-Semitism and director of the Birkbeck Institute for the Study of Anti-Semitism, believes it’s wrong to suggest that Jew hate is a uniquely Muslim problem. In his research, he draws a distinction between dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semites, who have an animus against Jews, and those – as many as one in three of the population – who sometimes slip into anti-Semitic ways of thinking, drawing on what he describes as a “reservoir” of anti-Semitism.

“There was a really important survey in 2017 conducted by the CST and by Jewish Policy Research that found that the percentage of people surveyed who are hard-core anti-Semites is relatively small [just 2 per cent],” Feldman says. “But the people who would respond affirmatively to just one of the anti-Semitic myths or stereotypes that were offered to them rose to as high as 30 per cent.”

Ideas in the “anti-Semitic reservoir” that many people dip into, without even realising, include the notion that Jews are more money-orientated than other people, and that they hold too much power in the media.

When Jews or Israel are “salient”, he says – such as when the Israel-Palestine conflict is in the headlines – many people often draw on the anti-Semitic “reservoir” to offer explanations. He is not optimistic about the prospect of eliminating that instinct. “I absolutely understand why a politician might want to say that they want to stamp anti-Semitism out, but given it’s been around for 1,000 years, that’s not really a realistic goal,” he says. “I do think, however, that education can make some progress.” He also believes that work between communities to improve relations can increase goodwill.

In other words, Israel does questionable or bad things or even defends itself, then the Jews in the UK get it.

And here is the real eye-opener (a quote from Braverman):

“Jews are leaving the country because they feel safer in Israel – and it’s a war zone. It’s not just about the Jewish communities, it’s about British values. Jews are an integrated part of Britain, and they are under siege right now.”

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

[mass, and still coming.

How much of what I've said above is drivel @TheDaddy?

I'd say the word being used was disproportionate, not proportionate, you know in regards to ambulances being attacked and then trying to cover the attack up, targeting aid workers, targeting journalists, torturing prisoners and repeatedly attempting and finally succeeding in murdering three hostages who took it upon themselves to try and secure release, all that sounds really reasonable and proportionate, Gaza was just lucky they were attacked by the most moral army in the world

Trump’s "ceasefire" is going well…



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crl4gxgkkylo

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Really? Surely "sanctions on Gaza" by Israel are a counter-terrorism measure.

And yes - it doesn't help that Israel is "illegally land-grabbing in the West Bank".

But, and here is more drivel, obviously, it doesn't justify the antisemitism taking place in the UK by Islamist provocateurs.

The reason for the sanctions is a side issue of which there will be differing opinions.The point is that its has prevented Gaza from developing along the lines that 45rpm suggested it might have done and that not to develop was a matter of choice.

The point about Israel's seizing land in the West Bank was that 45rpm only showed one side of the story - Israelis leaving Gaza.

There's no justification for anti-Semitism. Period.