Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by Pierre

"spare the rod, spoil the child"

The problem nowadays is that there is no effective punishment for kids and/or adults. They know they can be unruly with no comeback.

How can we expect teachers to be able to control disruptive and unruly chidren without:
An effective deterrent?
Support from the childrens parents?
Support from the government?
Support from the legal system?

If a little Ba***rd grows up knowing he can stick two fingers up to authority and get away with it. Then what going to stop him doing that in adult life.

Discipline is a cornerstone of an ordered society, unfortunately the bleeding heart liberals and do gooders have forgotten this, and instead like to invent new terms for things.

Attention deficiency syndrome - Boll*cks. If the kid's not paying attention then bloody well make him pay attention.

It really winds me up.

Excellent, real excellent post. I completely agree with you. Discipline needs to be taught, and the only way to teach discipline is negative reinforcement and punishment.

You do not see the military handing out candy when the soldiers are obedient. No. They get punished. Hard. Thats why it works in the military.

All evidence shows that positive reinforcement doesn't work for discipline. Look at today's society, and look at the military and yesterday's society. Easy to prove my point.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

All evidence shows that positive reinforcement doesn't work for discipline.

All the evidence that Jerrek wants to look at shows that positive reinforcement doesn't work for discipline...

Look at today's society, and look at the military and yesterday's society. Easy to prove my point.

It's easy to take *one* thing and build an entire case out of it. Whether this actually *proves* anything or not, is another matter entirely.

[zovat]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Excellent, real excellent post. I completely agree with you. Discipline needs to be taught, and the only way to teach discipline is negative reinforcement and punishment.

You do not see the military handing out candy when the soldiers are obedient. No. They get punished. Hard. Thats why it works in the military.

All evidence shows that positive reinforcement doesn't work for discipline. Look at today's society, and look at the military and yesterday's society. Easy to prove my point.

I have to agree here (about time I came off the fence and posted...)..

I went to a military boarding school, where the can was used (our parents had to sign a form agreeing to it when we started) as a form of punishment. Not the only form, but a form none the less.

You will always get some teacher (I hasten to point out that these are in the minority - a very small number indeed) who gets some form of pleasure out of it, but that can be avoided by setting very strict rules about why/how hard/how many etc.

I was caned on occasions, and it re-inforced the message of how to treat others - don't kick a person when they are down, show respect to your teachers and others in authority etc.

The military now has severe limitations on what it can and cannot give as a punishment (thank you very much the european court of human rights...) but the fact still remains that you know if you are fair and even to others, and do the you will be treated fairly and evenly... (you may not be able to smack the guy, but you can sure make him very tired from running around and doing the crappy jobs).

We had bullies at school - I was bullied, but when it was my turn to be the bigger lad, myself and others were so set against bullies that we managed to all but stamp it out (not literally) amoungst our year group.


In summary :

Bullies do not necessarily beget bullies, violence does not necessarily beget violence...

I went to a school where I was taught to shoot at age 11, how to set traps etc at 12., that has not made me a gun toting killer, but it has taught me self discipline and respect for others.

Corporal punishment works, but only if used sparingly and not as a standard.

Would I smack my kids (as and when we have them) ?
YES, but only if they had failed to respond to other forms of punishment.

It is all about moderation.
If all you do is hit someone, they will see it as normal, and feel that no matter what they do they will get hit, so they might as well do whatever they please.
A balance of positive and negative must be achieved, but IMO (note: this is MY OPINION) there is a place for corporal punishment in the modern society.

<now gets ready for the backlash>

[Jerrek]

You'll forgive me if I'm not going to study the science journals of the last 10 years, read five theses on "upbringing of a child," and pay attention to the experts who have no experience raising children.

My approach is simple and fast. Look at society 30 years ago, the military, and today.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Excellent, real excellent post. I completely agree with you. Discipline needs to be taught, and the only way to teach discipline is negative reinforcement and punishment.

You do not see the military handing out candy when the soldiers are obedient. No. They get punished. Hard. Thats why it works in the military.

All evidence shows that positive reinforcement doesn't work for discipline. Look at today's society, and look at the military and yesterday's society. Easy to prove my point.

That is just another polarised view.

In the U.S.A. you have higher prison sentences than we have. In some places you also have the ultimate negative reinforcement, the death penalty, yet you still have a much higher crime rate than the U.K.
How does that "all evidence shows..." go again?

Originally Posted by Jerrek

My approach is simple and fast. Look at society 30 years ago, the military, and today.

No, not simple, just simplistic.

[SOSAGES]

the world would be a better place if a few people were given a kick in or put away for a bit longer ...string em up i say!

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

That is just another polarised view.

In the U.S.A. you have higher prison sentences than we have. In some places you also have the ultimate negative reinforcement, the death penalty, yet you still have a much higher crime rate than the U.K.
How does that "all evidence shows..." go again?

The ultimate negative reinforcement is very effective. That person never commits another crime again.

Prisons are not as effective as physical punishment. Also, we tend to send people to prison longer than you do. Case in point, a murderer would get life in some states, in the UK he may get 5 years.

[Pierre]

In summary :

Bullies do not necessarily beget bullies, violence does not necessarily beget violence...

I went to a school where I was taught to shoot at age 11, how to set traps etc at 12., that has not made me a gun toting killer, but it has taught me self discipline and respect for others.

Corporal punishment works, but only if used sparingly and not as a standard.

Would I smack my kids (as and when we have them) ?
YES, but only if they had failed to respond to other forms of punishment.

It is all about moderation.
If all you do is hit someone, they will see it as normal, and feel that no matter what they do they will get hit, so they might as well do whatever they please.
A balance of positive and negative must be achieved, but IMO (note: this is MY OPINION) there is a place for corporal punishment in the modern society.

Couldn't agree more, a well balanced post that is hard to disagree with.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

You'll forgive me if I'm not going to study the science journals of the last 10 years, read five theses on "upbringing of a child," and pay attention to the experts who have no experience raising children.

My approach is simple and fast. Look at society 30 years ago, the military, and today.

No I won't forgive you. If you want to be objective in this argument then you do need to make some effort if you want to lay down broad sweeping judgements.

Ridiculing your opposition is not an argument. Casually rubbishing experts "who have no experience raising children" just makes you sound stupid.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

That is just another polarised view.

In the U.S.A. you have higher prison sentences than we have. In some places you also have the ultimate negative reinforcement, the death penalty, yet you still have a much higher crime rate than the U.K.
How does that "all evidence shows..." go again?

People forget when looking at crime in the USA that there are five times as many people living there as in the UK. In general, people in the UK only get to hear about the really brutal multiple killings, etc in the USA or the odd British subject that is murdered whilst on holiday over there. Many over here take these odd events to be the everyday norm and their judgement is even more clouded by TV shows being mainly American and featuring law and order subjects. If you look at violent crime in the USA it has dropped significantly in the last ten to fifteen years and fallen by 50% in the last ten years. One of the main reasons for this was the introduction of tougher sentencing laws in the late 80s.

[Stuartbe]

Come on guys and Girls... This is supposed to be a reasoned debate about using corporal punishment in U.K. Schools and homes....

Lets not have a row over and start getting personal.... !! PLEASE

Play Nice

[zovat]

Originally Posted by stuartbe

Come on guys and Girls... This is supposed to be a reasoned debate about using corporal punishment in U.K. Schools and homes....

Lets not have a row over and start getting personal.... !! PLEASE

Play Nice

Indeed, always remember we are discussing opinions here - lets not turn a debate into a ****ging match .

Please

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

The ultimate negative reinforcement is very effective. That person never commits another crime again.

Prisons are not as effective as physical punishment. Also, we tend to send people to prison longer than you do. Case in point, a murderer would get life in some states, in the UK he may get 5 years.

but you *still* have a higher crime rate.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

People forget when looking at crime in the USA that there are five times as many people living there as in the UK. In general, people in the UK only get to hear about the really brutal multiple killings, etc in the USA or the odd British subject that is murdered whilst on holiday over there. Many over here take these odd events to be the everyday norm and their judgement is even more clouded by TV shows being mainly American and featuring law and order subjects. If you look at violent crime in the USA it has dropped significantly in the last ten to fifteen years and fallen by 50% in the last ten years. One of the main reasons for this was the introduction of tougher sentencing laws in the late 80s.

I said crime rate (i.e. %) not total number of crimes.
Another thing that helps is that fact that prisons are not as bad as they used to be so that there is a more of a chance that offenders can improve themselves and lessen the chance of them re-offending (the positive way).