Relationships and religion

Bexy - sure, PM away

Drudge - you're welcome

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by towny

God is 100% perfect

mumble mumble genocidal tyrant mumble mumble slightly tainted by that mumble mumble

Originally Posted by towny

Hi DK ... any Christian you have met who thinks the fact that they have been 'saved' and get 'forgiven' means they can do whatever they like and still go to heaven is completely deluded, and you will be doing them a favour if you tell them that! Around the time the New Testament of the Bible was being written, some people were going round saying that the fact they were so bad was giving God a chance to prove how good and forgiving he is, so therefore it must be a good thing to be bad, in order to give God a continuing reason to show off his 'grace'. St Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament, got very angry about this and said of those people, 'their condemnation is just'.

Elsewhere, Jesus made it clear that the people who get into heaven at the end of it all are those who knew him, and who proved they knew him by living on Earth in the way he did. Of course, we're not perfect, and we still sin - I've made some fine messes in my life and I'm sure I'll make more - but making a mistake is a whole lot different than knowingly choosing a lifestyle that doesn't match up to the faith we profess.

As for the 'rules' for getting into heaven - it's not peculiar when you look at it from God's point of view. Heaven is his home; he is perfect and his home is perfect. He is quite entitled to decide who should be allowed to live there. As a matter of fact, no-one is allowed to live there of their own right - God is 100% perfect, heaven is 100% perfect, so anyone who lives there will have to be 100% perfect in order not to bring the place down. Because even a good person can't say they've gone their entire life without ever doing a single thing wrong, even a good person can't go to heaven. It's not a case of your good outweighing your bad - it's 100% good or nothing. And seeing as that means it's nothing for all of us, God made another way - forgiveness for us by punishing Jesus, who suffered separation from God so that when we die, if we have accepted what he did for us, we don't have to suffer that separation ourselves.

Sorry for climbing into the pulpit like that, but I really want you to know what the Bible does say about this so that you understand where we're coming from, and so that you can tell the difference between a Christian and a religious hypocrite.

Thank u for the good explanation Towny

[Xaccers]

Ok, who said they loved me?

[Bex]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Ok, who said they loved me?

ok is this a tirck question?

you mum??
your gf/wife/partner???
you gran??

or do u mean you had a rep point?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by bexy

ok is this a tirck question?

you mum??
your gf/wife/partner???
you gran??

or do u mean you had a rep point?

Had a rep point

Towny, if it was you, then yes it would get me into trouble with the missus

[Bex]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Had a rep point

Towny, if it was you, then yes it would get me into trouble with the missus

ahhhh :p

wasnt me :p

and if it was towny, im worried

[Tiptoes]

Originally Posted by dieselking

We who don’t believe in god can’t understand why people who call themselves Christians seem to think they can get away with anything & still go to heaven when they die., They seem to think just because they accept Jesus they can sin all the way though their lives & just because they think Jesus is their saviour they will get into this mythical heaven

But none believers can lead a very good & honest lives, never hurt anyone never sleep around & be very kind to others as we can but just because we refused to accept that there is a god, according to christians we will be sent straight down to hell. This is a very peculiar philosophy

I second that emoticon

[Tiptoes]

Originally Posted by towny

As for the 'rules' for getting into heaven - it's not peculiar when you look at it from God's point of view.

Is that g-ds point of view from a Christian perspective

G-Ds point of view from a muslim perspective

G-Ds point of view from a buddists perspective or

G-Ds point of view from a jewish Perspective?

Because I always understoond the rules to be different for many religions , races and people..............

Each type of peoples have a slightly different view of G-Ds rules for ascension to heaven..

Wow!When did this thread turn into a bash christians thread?
Silly me!It's how all the threads based on or around religion seem to end up these days.

I'm an athiest BUT I'm not prepared to have a go at people JUST because they have a strong belief in their religion what ever that religion.This is a democracy where all religions have the right to worship as they wish PROVIDED that they obey all the secular laws.

Hypocracy is not the sole domain of Christians.It is present in everyone even those who are not of any faith.

As an athiest I would be always prepared to defend anyone's right to worship(or not worship) as they choose.

So how about we just stick to the topic of this thread?

Incog.

[Tiptoes]

Ill get me coat

Originally Posted by Tiptoes

I second that emoticon

Thanks Tiptoes (Iâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢m glad someone does LOL)

Originally Posted by Tiptoes

Each type of peoples have a slightly different view of G-Ds rules for ascension to heaven..

True, but that observation does not preclude the possibility that only one view is correct; nor does it preclude the possibility of identifying which view is correct.

But it's far too late to open a debate on philosophical relativism, so I'm going to bed.


--------
Xaccers - I can wholeheartedly promise I didn't rep you this evening ... although I do love you.

(Come on, you all know what I meant. Sheesh, is this a playground or what? )

Originally Posted by towny

Elsewhere, Jesus made it clear that the people who get into heaven at the end of it all are those who knew him, and who proved they knew him by living on Earth in the way he did.

I had a religious type turn up on my doorstep once (a JW I think) and I decided to try him on the "what if someone in the Amazon Rainforest or similar place lives a perfect life, according to Christian values, but never even *hears* of Jesus before they die? Surely it's the case that Christian belief says that because he hasn't accepted Jesus as his saviour, he's damned?"

"Ah no," replies the JW, "in the three days between when he died and was resurrected, his spirit went around the whole world to allow everyone to experience his blessings, so even if they've never heard of Jesus, they're still being a Christian!"

"But wait a moment," I responded, "what if they're a good Muslim or Hindu, but don't do anything against Christian values?"

"It doesn't matter. Even if they don't know it, they're still being a Christian!"

At this point I gave up in severe bogglement that this guy could a) present an argument that gets you both coming *and* going and b) that he could seemingly insult every other religion because it doesn't matter what someone does which they think is part of *their* religion, if they're doing according to the JW's beliefs, they're a Christian, no matter what!!!

(I could just imagine the scene: A devout Muslim strolls through the gates of Paradise. "Truly there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet!", "Sorry, pal, I'm Saint Peter and those were the Pearly Gates!!")

The bit of my post you quoted refers to a chunk of the Bible in which Jesus is separating among Christians - those who call themelves 'Christian' and live the life, and those who call themselves 'Christian' and then don't live it. It doesn't really relate to the issue of what happens to people who believe something else entirely.

I think the JW who came to your door had a very odd point of view indeed, certainly if he claimed the Bible as his authority. But the JWs have a number of very odd beliefs, IMO.

The Bible's message to Christians is to spread the Gospel, and it's message to non-Christians is to hear the Gospel and believe it. It says very little about those that don't hear it and therefore don't have a chance to respond, although there is one interesting passage in Paul's letter to the Roman Christians - he says there is enough evidence in creation for someone to come to a knowledge of God. Clearly you couldn't know Jesus' name or follow specifically Christian patterns of life or belief based on this, but I think it points to the idea of the person who has never known the name of Jesus still being able to worship him - and therefore getting 'saved'.

I don't think that every person who never heard of Jesus is therefore being a Christian, but there certainly seems to be room to suggest that those who come to some understanding that there is a God, and determine to try to serve him, will not be treated unjustly. That, after all, is at the crux of it - Justice is at the heart of God's nature.

And now I really am going to bed.