Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

As it's true, I have nothing to worry about.

So long as you have the evidence/witnesses available in court to reliably back it up then that's fine. Truth still needs proof.
Just a bit of friendly advice thats all.

[Jerrek]

Negative reinforcement and punishment are several orders of magnitude more effective than positive reinforcement.

[Stuartbe]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Negative reinforcement and punishment are several orders of magnitude more effective than positive reinforcement.

I think that there is a place for both of them.... Positive reinforcement should allways be used first IMO....

[dizziblonde]

As a teacher I wouldn't want it as a sanction to even be available for me to use. What I want more than anything is to be able to keep children behind after class, send work that's been messed about over in class home for finishing etc without parents trooping up to school bawling me out (in front of a smirking child) telling me that "no effing way is little Johnny staying in at break to finish this work" etc etc. The kids see that the parents will jump into their arguments and that they're basically untouchable in school... would YOU bother to behave then?

I speak also as someone who had minor behavioural problems as a child - owing to being exceptionally bright and not challenged enough - I was bored out of my mind and spotted the loopholes in the system - but at least then misbehaving had clear consequences... nowadays the sanctions have all been removed from us.

In my time I've encountered 4 year olds who'll stab classmates with scissors and pencils, one child who would sit and punch me in the arm for all the carpet time (also a reception child) and children who will stand and scream and try to punch me (a junior-aged child). Outside of school I've also been verbally and physically assaulted by children aged about 11 or 12 who were known hoodlums in the area. Things ARE out of control.

I still wouldn't want corporal punishment as a sanction though - I'd never use it because I think it's wrong.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

I don't know quite how you can just casually rubbish the experts like that by making broad statements that positive discipline does not work and has no effect. Maybe you have misunderstood the information in the link I gave or perhaps you need to look for some more expert resources on the subject which may deal with more specific examples.

It's easy when you see it day after day not working.
With parents saying "Johnny, I don't want you to do that, it's really not very nice is it?" and seeing the kids totally ignore their parents.
As I said, I know several professionals who have been taught various forms of disipline, and chose to use reasoning with their own children, with dire results.
If this happens with professionals who know all the information, and have been on specific courses, how are the vast majority (and to make a difference it has to be the vast majority) of average parents going to be able to do it and make a difference to society?

Kids soon learn that if they give the right answers to the reasoning questions asked by their parents, they can get on with what they want, without being punished.
Parents says "Now I don't think that was a very nice thing to do, do you?"
Kid thinks "I don't care, I wanted to do it and its not like I'm going to get into trouble for it, but you're holding me up so I can't give an honest answer. If I say what you want to hear then you'll let me go and play"
Kid says "Yes daddy, I'm sorry, I won't do it again"
Adults underestimate how devious children can be.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Negative reinforcement and punishment are several orders of magnitude more effective than positive reinforcement.

More effective for who? It might be several orders of magnitude more *convenient* for the giver of the punishment maybe.
I've already provided evidence that clearly suggests positive discipline is better.

[ian@huth]

Times have certainly changed since I was a kid and I don't think many of the changes are for the better. Punishment at all levels is a bit of a joke in todays world and the people who deserve to be punished know this and push everything to the limit. Whilst this thread has mainly talked about schoolchildren we should also be looking at older people. The punishment for many crimes isn't that much of a punishment and in some cases culprits look on their punishment as a reward. If you have ever seen the inside of a young offenders or open prison you would be amazed. When I worked for the British Library IT department at Boston Spa we had both a young offenders and open prison next door. Some of the prisoners used to work for us doing manual jobs and gardening. We used to play the prisoners at football and cricket and when playing cricket used to have a meal in the prison. Life for the prisoners was more like a term in a holiday camp rather than a punishment and many reoffende just to get back in for an easy life with good food, accomodation and recreational facilities. We talked many times with prisoners about what would be effective deterrants and several said that corporal punishment would be more of a deterrant than a term inside.

[Stuartbe]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

Times have certainly changed since I was a kid and I don't think many of the changes are for the better. Punishment at all levels is a bit of a joke in todays world and the people who deserve to be punished know this and push everything to the limit. Whilst this thread has mainly talked about schoolchildren we should also be looking at older people. The punishment for many crimes isn't that much of a punishment and in some cases culprits look on their punishment as a reward. If you have ever seen the inside of a young offenders or open prison you would be amazed. When I worked for the British Library IT department at Boston Spa we had both a young offenders and open prison next door. Some of the prisoners used to work for us doing manual jobs and gardening. We used to play the prisoners at football and cricket and when playing cricket used to have a meal in the prison. Life for the prisoners was more like a term in a holiday camp rather than a punishment and many reoffende just to get back in for an easy life with good food, accomodation and recreational facilities. We talked many times with prisoners about what would be effective deterrants and several said that corporal punishment would be more of a deterrant than a term inside.

Agreed - What kind of a deterent is sending a car thief to disneyland ?

[ian@huth]

One of the biggest causes of lack of discipline in children is the parents having differing views on the subject. I have seen many cases of a child being punished either verbally or physically by one parent and the other parent consoling the child and giving them a cuddle. This leads to confusion in the child about what is right and what is wrong and the child playing off one parent against the other which can eventually lead to marital problems. A child will respond and learn more from parents who have talked over the subject of discipline and formulated rules on the subject.

[Stuartbe]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

One of the biggest causes of lack of discipline in children is the parents having differing views on the subject. I have seen many cases of a child being punished either verbally or physically by one parent and the other parent consoling the child and giving them a cuddle. This leads to confusion in the child about what is right and what is wrong and the child playing off one parent against the other which can eventually lead to marital problems. A child will respond and learn more from parents who have talked over the subject of discipline and formulated rules on the subject.

LOL - It was like this when I was young...

Example - " can I have an icecream dad ? " - " Ask your mother "

" mum - can I have an icecream please, dad said it was o.k. " sure you can

[Julian]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

One of the biggest causes of lack of discipline in children is the parents having differing views on the subject. I have seen many cases of a child being punished either verbally or physically by one parent and the other parent consoling the child and giving them a cuddle. This leads to confusion in the child about what is right and what is wrong and the child playing off one parent against the other which can eventually lead to marital problems. A child will respond and learn more from parents who have talked over the subject of discipline and formulated rules on the subject.

Well said Ian.

The other thing is there must be consistency, if it is wrong today it is wrong tomorrow. There is nothing more guaranteed to confuse a young child otherwise.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

It's easy when you see it day after day not working.
With parents saying "Johnny, I don't want you to do that, it's really not very nice is it?" and seeing the kids totally ignore their parents.
As I said, I know several professionals who have been taught various forms of disipline, and chose to use reasoning with their own children, with dire results.
If this happens with professionals who know all the information, and have been on specific courses, how are the vast majority (and to make a difference it has to be the vast majority) of average parents going to be able to do it and make a difference to society?

Kids soon learn that if they give the right answers to the reasoning questions asked by their parents, they can get on with what they want, without being punished.
Parents says "Now I don't think that was a very nice thing to do, do you?"
Kid thinks "I don't care, I wanted to do it and its not like I'm going to get into trouble for it, but you're holding me up so I can't give an honest answer. If I say what you want to hear then you'll let me go and play"
Kid says "Yes daddy, I'm sorry, I won't do it again"
Adults underestimate how devious children can be.

It is not just about what the parent says to the child. It is also about how the parent behaves. By smacking you are teaching that ultimately the most "effective" way is the violent way. That cannot be the right way because it just perpetuates more violence. Children are not very keen on patience and will happily mimmick the violent short cut to get an instant result that suits them.
Positive discipline is not an instant cure which you can discard after use. It is a way of life. However, it does not cost anything. The average parent should be able to do it because that is who it is designed for. Started early enough it will work without trouble. Using it on exceptionaly problematic children will obviously take more time and effort.

I think everyone will agree that bringing up children is the hardest thing you will ever do in your life. There are no shortcuts.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

It is not just about what the parent says to the child. It is also about how the parent behaves. By smacking you are teaching that ultimately the most "effective" way is the violent way. That cannot be the right way because it just perpetuates more violence. Children are not very keen on patience and will happily mimmick the violent short cut to get an instant result that suits them.
Positive discipline is not an instant cure which you can discard after use. It is a way of life. However, it does not cost anything. The average parent should be able to do it because that is who it is designed for. Started early enough it will work without trouble. Using it on exceptionaly problematic children will obviously take more time and effort.

I think everyone will agree that bringing up children is the hardest thing you will ever do in your life. There are no shortcuts.

Yet with the professionals I've seen, they have the most disruptive, undiciplined children I've ever had the displeasure to meet, despite knowing the techniques you mention, and more.

Accoding to your theories I should be a violent person, and historically, society would consist nearly entirely of extremely violent people as they were brought up having/witnessing the cane being used at school.
But that isn't the case.

Children know a slap is punishment for something they've done which they shouldn't have done, they don't associate it with violence.
It teaches them that if someone does something wrong, they should be punished, the core of Justice.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

One of the biggest causes of lack of discipline in children is the parents having differing views on the subject. I have seen many cases of a child being punished either verbally or physically by one parent and the other parent consoling the child and giving them a cuddle. This leads to confusion in the child about what is right and what is wrong and the child playing off one parent against the other which can eventually lead to marital problems. A child will respond and learn more from parents who have talked over the subject of discipline and formulated rules on the subject.

Another cause is that the child does not even have two parents. Very common these days sadly.
Single parents who do manage to bring up their children well deserve a special medal.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Yet with the professionals I've seen, they have the most disruptive, undiciplined children I've ever had the displeasure to meet, despite knowing the techniques you mention, and more.

Accoding to your theories I should be a violent person, and historically, society would consist nearly entirely of extremely violent people as they were brought up having/witnessing the cane being used at school.
But that isn't the case.

Children know a slap is punishment for something they've done which they shouldn't have done, they don't associate it with violence.
It teaches them that if someone does something wrong, they should be punished, the core of Justice.

You cannot deny that smacking is violence whatever level you want to categorise it as. You learned it from your parents. Your parents learned it from their parents...ad infinitum.

Young children don't really have a handle on the concept of absolute justice as you or I know it. They learn that a slap not only hurts them but is also used to get things done your way and they will happily employ this technique themselves against other children. What happens when they get caught inflicting violence? They get another slap. And on and on we go.

Breaking the cycle is diffcult. I think we are in a transition our history and if we just give in and resort back to ye ole smack then we are not advancing ourselves, our children, our children's children etc.