Christians arrested for defending their beliefs

Updated version of the story from the Daily Fail

The charges relate to a heated conversation the couple had with the guest at their hotel in Liverpool in March. On her final morning before checking out, she came down to breakfast wearing a hijab, the traditional Muslim headdress.
The unnamed woman had been staying at the Bounty House Hotel near Aintree racecourse for four weeks while receiving treatment at a local hospital, but the couple had never seen her wear her religious clothing before.
It is alleged they suggested that Mohammad, the founder of Islam, was a warlord when the guest challenged them about their Christian beliefs. The woman also claims that the couple, who vehemently deny the allegations and say they were simply defending their faith, described her traditional dress as a form of bondage

and

'Nobody was being threatened and while the Vogelenzangs were fully aware that a robust exchange had taken place and the woman had been perhaps a little offended, they were shocked when the police became involved.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

<insert expletive of your choice

Saaf: What a polite phrase.


You know, it seems to me that too many people need to get a life. If all you can do is to argue about someones religion, & let it rule you, then your seriously in the (insert expletive of your choice).

People have killed for their religion, & are still killing for it. Human nature sets the pace, once an argument starts, it escalates. It needs rationality for people to say, this isn't worth the aggro. As an Atheist, if someone said to me that my belief is total rubbish, I say OK, believe what you want. If it works for you, fine.

I don't escalate it to a punch up, or threaten legal action, I get on with my life. We all have different opinions, & mine is, live & let live, & keep your beliefs to yourself.

Amen!

Strangely enough, one of the defendants, Ben Vogelenzang, is one of those immigrant chappies, not being born in this country.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by SMG

Saaf: What a polite phrase.


You know, it seems to me that too many people need to get a life. If all you can do is to argue about someones religion, & let it rule you, then your seriously in the (insert expletive of your choice).

People have killed for their religion, & are still killing for it. Human nature sets the pace, once an argument starts, it escalates. It needs rationality for people to say, this isn't worth the aggro. As an Atheist, if someone said to me that my belief is total rubbish, I say OK, believe what you want. If it works for you, fine.

I don't escalate it to a punch up, or threaten legal action, I get on with my life. We all have different opinions, & mine is, live & let live, & keep your beliefs to yourself.

Amen!

And obviously you'll agree that such attitudes are not just tied to religion?

Originally Posted by Gary L

Not being funny, but if we were to do that, then we shouldn't discuss anything till the jury has returned their verdict on everything that goes on in the world.

There's a murder trial going on that happened just around the corner from me, and I've known the person that did it for the last 27 years.

So!Who cares.I personally would rather wait and see what is said in court because what is said in the papers will probably be inadmissible in court and any jury or judge will have to disregard it anyway because it's the evidence presented in court that will matter.

Also the quickest way to look like an idiot is to speculate without facts and then when the facts emerge and they aren't what you expected, you've already nailed your opinion to the mast

Originally Posted by Maggy J

So!Who cares.I personally would rather wait and see what is said in court because what is said in the papers will probably be inadmissible in court and any jury or judge will have to disregard it anyway because it's the evidence presented in court that will matter.

Also the quickest way to look like an idiot is to speculate without facts and then when the facts emerge and they aren't what you expected, you've already nailed your opinion to the mast

It wouldn't be speculation if we had all the facts would it ?

This is an open forum with a current affairs section what are we meant to do wait until all cases are finished before posting about them? wouldn't be much of a current affairs section then would it?

I do agree about making oneself look a fool by jumping to conclusions but not many of us are guilt free there

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Russ B

And obviously you'll agree that such attitudes are not just tied to religion?

Of course. All I know is that, once someone disagrees with someone else, a conflict arises. Human nature kicks in, & the disagreement escalates. Now if we could all just let it go, there wouldn't be so much aggro in the world.

Religious people are constantly spreading the words "peace & goodwill", yet all we see is upset & aggro. If these people really believed in their religion, then they should practice what they preach, & simply walked away, instead of taking the dispute further.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

So!Who cares.I personally would rather wait and see what is said in court because what is said in the papers will probably be inadmissible in court and any jury or judge will have to disregard it anyway because it's the evidence presented in court that will matter.

Also the quickest way to look like an idiot is to speculate without facts and then when the facts emerge and they aren't what you expected, you've already nailed your opinion to the mast

I'm in a public forum like that. you're allowed to post a subject that's in the news at the time or something, and the mods check it up and close the thread till after the court hearing has finished. then re-open it for you to make your views and opinions known.

it works really well. I've got a few threads going back till last year that are due up soon, and I can make my comments and views then. there's one that was started today, but won't be available for discussion until Summer next year.

This isn't the same as a lot of things we comment on here though this is a verbal exchange that happened between a couple and an individual and so far we only have the couples version of it. Most of the things we usually comment on have some basic fact to them and we debate the merits of that, that isn't the case here. Also while i googled their hotel i found no mention of a dress code either so why the hell did they feel the need to make any comment about something a paying guest was wearing if it was normal clothing. This couple don't seem like completely innocent people to me but i wouldn't go as far as to say it should have become a criminal case.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

What's your definition of a Warlord though? What's the definition by the agreived and defendants?

It is my experience that this sort of comment rarely has no basis in any great knowledge of the subject and those delivering the comment rarely know why. Typically, it is because they either have read too much BNP propaganda, read too much Daily Mail, or both, Then the involvement of the "Christian Institute," really does give us a clue as to what the answer would be.

---------- Post added at 00:22 ---------- Previous post was at 00:03 ----------

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Strangely enough, one of the defendants, Ben Vogelenzang, is one of those immigrant chappies, not being born in this country.

"Vogelenzang" is a traditional Afrikaans name.

[Sparkle]

I hope noone minds me entering this discussion, being a n00b and all
Just had a quick read through these last 11 pages or so, very interesting contributions from all sides. Clearly certain expressed views are rather twisted, but this I find to be of no consequence, as I never get bored with the anti-religion drivel that thrives on so many forums these days.

Its clear, regardless of what the Vogelenzangs actually said about Islam - that this is hardly a matter worthy of criminal proceedings. If someone walked up to me and said Jesus lived in the playboy villa just down the road from his carpenters workshop, I seriously doubt I'd be involving the police. Sticks'n stones and all that. I would just take pity on the fool, and walk away.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Its clear, regardless of what the Vogelenzangs actually said about Islam - that this is hardly a matter worthy of criminal proceedings. If someone walked up to me and said Jesus lived in the playboy villa just down the road from his carpenters workshop, I seriously doubt I'd be involving the police. Sticks'n stones and all that. I would just take pity on the fool, and walk away.

I think this reflects a modern interpretation of the Christian faith and is an admirable outlook. However, I would argue that current islamic doctrine is not quite so lenient about people having a pop at their god. I would be shocked if the people saying these things did not appreciate what offence this might cause. I can think of two reasons why they may have said this and thought it was OK - they didn't know and have been living under a rock or they were being deliberately inflammatory and therefore guilty of the offence as charged.

Using Dad speak - 'what did you think was going to happen?'. Being culturally sensitive isn't really that hard.

Oh, on the free speech thing - you don't have the right of free speech on this forum, it's moderated and rightly so, so why the problem out in the real world?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

I hope noone minds me entering this discussion, being a n00b and all
Just had a quick read through these last 11 pages or so, very interesting contributions from all sides. Clearly certain expressed views are rather twisted, but this I find to be of no consequence, as I never get bored with the anti-religion drivel that thrives on so many forums these days.

Its clear, regardless of what the Vogelenzangs actually said about Islam - that this is hardly a matter worthy of criminal proceedings. If someone walked up to me and said Jesus lived in the playboy villa just down the road from his carpenters workshop, I seriously doubt I'd be involving the police. Sticks'n stones and all that. I would just take pity on the fool, and walk away.

A very good attitude to take. Are you sure you're really a 'noob'?

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I think this reflects a modern interpretation of the Christian faith and is an admirable outlook. However, I would argue that current islamic doctrine is not quite so lenient about people having a pop at their god. I would be shocked if the people saying these things did not appreciate what offence this might cause. I can think of two reasons why they may have said this and thought it was OK - they didn't know and have been living under a rock or they were being deliberately inflammatory and therefore guilty of the offence as charged.

Interestingly put and I do agree, though I do tend to feel that foreigners entering this country should make every effort to abide by our rules and customs, and I would extend this to include the way in which we conduct our faiths. Under our system, the same system that our forefathers fought and gave their lives to preserve - we do allow others to express their opinion(s) without getting our knickers in the knot, provided its done within reason. At least, we are supposed to - though this hasn't always been exactly followed to the letter. One only has to look at the situation in N. Ireland to see where I'm going with this !
If we don't like whats being said, we can make counter arguments or we can simply walk away.
However, as has been said, lacking the specifics of the case in question - we don't really know if the comments were innocently made in passing - or whether they were made to cause deliberate offense.

---------- Post added at 09:38 ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 ----------

Originally Posted by Russ B

A very good attitude to take. Are you sure you're really a 'noob'?

Thanks Russ, I'm a cableforum noob - not quite so much a noob when it comes to these types of discussions tho.

[Russ]

Right. You just seem strangely familiar and remind me of a former member that's all.