Relationships and religion

Originally Posted by Graham

Pardon me if this sounds like "Jam Yesterday, Jam Tomorrow, but never Jam Today!"

But I do have jam today! God's presence in my life is a major miracle. Sadly I can't prove it to you; as all I am on this forum is few kilobytes of user data and about 1,800 posted comments, you have no way of understanding the fundamental changes of character that occured in my life after my conversion. People who knew me before and after would attest to it though. That presence is onging, although I understand you could claim that to be delusional in some way.

External to me, people do get healed of sickness and impossible reversals in difficult situations do happen. They just get lost in the background noise of a world that doesn't want to believe. And as I posted yesterday, we simply don't know what major world events might have God's hand in them. The only difference between 'Biblical times' and now is that back then, the Bible was still being written, so things got recorded from God's point of view.

Originally Posted by towny

But I do have jam today! God's presence in my life is a major miracle. Sadly I can't prove it to you;

Which rather proves(!) my point!

External to me, people do get healed of sickness and impossible reversals in difficult situations do happen. They just get lost in the background noise of a world that doesn't want to believe.

Yes "miraculous cures" happen. Whether they're attributable to a deity or just pure luck for example is another matter entirely.

The only difference between 'Biblical times' and now is that back then, the Bible was still being written, so things got recorded from God's point of view.

Well, no, actually they got recorded from *mens'* point of view.

Originally Posted by Graham

Which rather proves(!) my point!

Yes "miraculous cures" happen. Whether they're attributable to a deity or just pure luck for example is another matter entirely.

Well, no, actually they got recorded from *mens'* point of view.

If by 'no jam today' you meant 'nothing that is demonstrably jam today' then yes, it does prove your point - but becoming a Christian has always been a matter of faith, not empirical proof.

However I thought by 'jam yesterday, jam tomorrow but never jam today!' you were suggesting we believe miracles exist only in the Bible - either as history or prophecy - and never here and now. In which case, all I was saying is that I believe there is jam here and now.

As for whose point of view the Bible is from ... well, as far as I'm concerned, it was written by men who spiritually enjoyed a close relationship with God, so effectively his point of view. But then, this is another point on which there is no empirical proof on either side.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Graham

Yes "miraculous cures" happen. Whether they're attributable to a deity or just pure luck for example is another matter entirely.

Whereas you appear to choose one side, us Jesus-freaks side with the other

And like that, we'll all get along

Fine, but if someone claims "it's a miracle", you won't have any objection to anyone else looking for a scientific reason, will you?

[Russ]

Never have, never will

Just as long as we're not derided for what we believe.

[Tiptoes]

Originally Posted by towny

The only difference between 'Biblical times' and now is that back then, the Bible was still being written, so things got recorded from God's point of view.

See what I mean about cows stomachs.....

Call me cynical but,

I wonder how many thousand of years it will take before people start saying God Parted the clouds came down sat in his Lazeeyboy grabbed his keyboard and wrote his prohecies on a web site ont t'internet.

Ive watched a few movies in my time but the parting of the sea wasnt one of them im afraid.

[Bex]

just another aside...on the matter of the rapture....revelations predicts several judgements...that one could see as miracles....a great earthquake, plagues etc etc

[Salu]

Tiptoes, I have read your comments with interest...

Two observations;

1) Your posts seem to suggest a negative brush with Christianity or some form of inherent aversion?

2) I am intrigued that you call yourself Tiptoes? That indicates tact and carefullness; neither of which seem to have been free-flowing, if you permit me to say?

[Tiptoes]

Originally Posted by Salu

Tiptoes, I have read your comments with interest...

Two observations;

1) Your posts seem to suggest a negative brush with Christianity or some form of inherent aversion?

2) I am intrigued that you call yourself Tiptoes? That indicates tact and carefullness; neither of which seem to have been free-flowing, if you permit me to say?

Well to address your observations,

1).

Nope I was brought up a Methodist, I went to Sunday school, said my prayers before tea and all that. The difference being I have just grown up and learned from my own personal experiences what else is one supposed to base their opnions on? A book written from thousands of years ago?

to give you some understand or remote comprehension I cite a taster of my experience of the Christian faith shall Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’‚¦Ã¢âà¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ã‚¬Ã‚¦..

Only a few months ago watched an opera of a Christian marriage between a vicars daughter (Lovely Girl) and a friend take place. This marriage was not about love and all the attributes of Christian principles, it was where two people have been forced together as one with one of thse persons being none to happy but going ahead with the marriage because "he didnâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t want to upset the family" and thought it the right and proper thing to do... poor thing.

Now this is where I get off the religious bandwagon when it interferes with people lives and forces them into situations that they donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t really want to be in, but do so just because other people feel it right and proper.

I can also speak from personal experience...................

For many years I was unmarried and the pressure to get married was immense from all directions family, friends and the church...itr was almost like we had a disease of some sortâ₠¬Ã‚¦Ã¢â ‚¬Â¦. The vicar of our local school where one of my children went tool a instant disliking to my family because we were an "unmarried couple"........ The truth of the matter is our son was being bullied so much so he was coming home in Bites Bruises and wetting the bed each night... We knew nothing of this until the Doctor suggested he was being bullied at school when we took him to find the problem causing the bedwetting.

What did the head teacher & vicar (Cannon) say of the church school say?

Bullying doesnââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t happen in Church schools....Really?

Well guess what when he was Cannon (Vicar) not only did we have to remove our child from the school to stop the bullying but two children hung themselves in the secondary school he was head of... Oh yes all shoved under the carpet.......even though our repeated requests for help fell on deaf ears....

The school tried to cover up their mistakes and we kept evidence of this cover up (Changed letters) which we eventually sent to the then education minister. Needless to say two weeks after we removed our child from the school after he was threatened to be set alight the head teacher from the school after 25/30 years service mysteriously "Retired"

Shortly after that our second child at the same school was bullied by her teacher... accused of stealing a pencil of a desk.... My daughter went short of nothing at school and had umpteen pencil in her case.. It was all a ploy to attack our family any way possible... We ended up removing her from the school as well because she was too frightened of the teacher.....

So am I cynical for not having faith in the Christian faith....

I have similar issues around other faiths such like I do not agree with Muslim arranged marriages but thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s another story and personal opinion.

we make and form these opinions on our personal experiences in life and unfortunately I have had some very bad ones whre religion is concerned and why I formed such strong views. You may have been luckier....


2) You are permitted to say whatever you want provided it is within the rules of this board I supposeââ‚à ‚¬Ã‚¦.

As far as my nickname is concerned it isnââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t relevant to anything I say or do it is just a nickname from someone who is very special and close to meââ‚ ¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¦ and My private affairââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¦. Trouble is your reading into something that isnââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t thereââ‚ƚ¬Ã‚¦Ã¢à¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ã‚¬Ã‚¦. Your mistake not mineââ‚ ¬Ã‚¦..........

If you would permit me to say.

[Russ]

Some bad experiences indeed but certainly in the minority. It would be unwise to expect all churches to be like that. For example, it is well known in my church that I am unmarried and had a child out of wedlock. I'm sure they would prefer it if we got together but nobody comments on it.

[Xaccers]

Those are two fine examples of the "human factor" when it comes to religious interpretation.
In one case, people who consider themselves christian act holier than thou yet bully children because they disagree with their parents' relationship.
In the other, you have a similar relationship (un-married parents) and they are not judged, but welcomed.

[Tiptoes]

Fair point, but my experiences of children being bulllying and ignored in church schools isnt an "individual" case

Many kids have hung themselves as a result this isnt isolated.....

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Tiptoes

Fair point, but my experiences of children being bulllying and ignored in church schools isnt an "individual" case

Many kids have hung themselves as a result this isnt isolated.....

True but the millions and millions of kids who enjoy church schools around the world and have happy experiences there simply don't qualify for headline news these days...

[Tiptoes]

Originally Posted by Russ D

True but the millions and millions of kids who enjoy church schools around the world and have happy experiences there simply don't qualify for headline news these days...

And another typical christian contradiction of its principles............

That the happiness of the many outweigh that of the dreadful deaths of the unhappy bullied few.....

so let me ask yopu Russ....


Are you saying that the millions of happy children should have the headline news? or

are you saying that there is so much good in the church we should ignore the problems of the few?

if not what is it exactly your saying with the above statement?

because if it was a cynical ploy it didnt work that well im afraid all it does for me is reinforce my veiw....