Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Originally Posted by jfman

7th October is an entirely arbitrary starting date.

I see your desperation to point blame anywhere else is in full force atm.

Still, "Starting" is the important word, as already noted.
Any date is arbitrary, picked by some commander I expect.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

There’s a difference between that being the sequence of events (of which there were decades of actions on both sides before that) and denying that the IDF have agency to decide not to slaughter paramedics, or generally a free pass to ignore the established norms of warfare by bombing hospitals.

7th October is an entirely arbitrary starting date.

Apart from the abhorrent atrocity of 7th October (which you so callously downplay), we can take it back to 1948 when 3x Arab countries invaded Israel on the day that the UN declared Israel into being. Since then, Al Fatah carried out hideous acts of terrorism which you and at least one other also conveniently ignore.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

I see your desperation to point blame anywhere else is in full force atm.

Still, "Starting" is the important word, as already noted.
Any date is arbitrary, picked by some commander I expect.

No desperation here - I’m not trying to point the blame anywhere else. Terrorists are responsible for the attacks they commit. Nation states are responsible for their response and whether they are proportionate (or in this case, not).

Nobody can truly watch the summary execution of paramedics the other day by the IDF and blame Hamas because of an event that happened 18 months ago. To do so is fundamentally to deny them the right to live, and by follow on, the Palestinian people the right to medical treatment for events that had nothing to do with them.

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 18:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Apart from the abhorrent atrocity of 7th October (which you so callously downplay), we can take it back to 1948 when 3x Arab countries invaded Israel on the day that the UN declared Israel into being. Since then, Al Fatah carried out hideous acts of terrorism which you and at least one other also conveniently ignore.

The only thing being callously downplayed is the Palestinian right to life and not be subjected to collective punishment at the hands of a military force. Indeed even counting the dead is something that isn’t permitted, and must be caveated at all times by Israeli denials and deflections. A luxury that isn’t afforded to anyone else, anywhere in the world, in normal reporting.

Originally Posted by jfman

Nobody can truly watch the summary execution of paramedics the other day by the IDF and blame Hamas because of an event that happened 18 months ago.

Why not ? This situation is a result of the events on that day.
War is not pretty, and things happen that most definitely should not.

The event you refer to was clearly wrong, and shoud never have happened.
However, that does not change the fact that this whole mess was started by the Hamas attacks & invasion.

To deny that suggests you are living in cloud cookoo land (or Russia).

Had Oct 7th not happened, would we have had 18 months of peace ?
Unlikely I would think - but would we have the current full scale war, death and destruction ? No.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

Why not ? This situation is a result of the events on that day.
War is not pretty, and things happen that most definitely should not.

The event you refer to was clearly wrong, and shoud never have happened.
However, that does not change the fact that this whole mess was started by the Hamas attacks & invasion.

To deny that suggests you are living in cloud cookoo land (or Russia).

Had Oct 7th not happened, would we have had 18 months of peace ?
Unlikely I would think - but would we have the current full scale war, death and destruction ? No.

Nobody disputes war isn’t pretty, but it has rules and conventions to protect civilian populations. Applying them is supposed to be what makes ‘civilised’ nations better than rogue states and terror organisations. Which was my original point

Originally Posted by jfman

There’s a difference between that being the sequence of events (of which there were decades of actions on both sides before that) and denying that the IDF have agency to decide not to slaughter paramedics, or generally a free pass to ignore the established norms of warfare by bombing hospitals.

Being a critic of Israel for the choices they make in how they are conducting this response isn’t the same as not blaming Hamas for it’s role in October 7th. I’m also not convinced it makes Israel (or the west in general) safer in the long run.

Appreciate we have done this back and forth before so I’ll leave it there for this evening.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Appreciate we have done this back and forth before so I’ll leave it there for this evening.

This discussion is pretty pointless atm. You’ve the got the pro-Hamas terrorist sycophants crowd such as Ianch99, and you’ve got the Israel has a right to do whatever it takes to destroy Hamas…such as myself.

Nothing is likely to happen to change either’s opinion, anytime soon, if ever.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

No desperation here - I’m not trying to point the blame anywhere else. Terrorists are responsible for the attacks they commit. Nation states are responsible for their response and whether they are proportionate (or in this case, not).

Nobody can truly watch the summary execution of paramedics the other day by the IDF and blame Hamas because of an event that happened 18 months ago. To do so is fundamentally to deny them the right to live, and by follow on, the Palestinian people the right to medical treatment for events that had nothing to do with them.

---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 18:04 ----------



The only thing being callously downplayed is the Palestinian right to life and not be subjected to collective punishment at the hands of a military force. Indeed even counting the dead is something that isn’t permitted, and must be caveated at all times by Israeli denials and deflections. A luxury that isn’t afforded to anyone else, anywhere in the world, in normal reporting.

The Palestinian right to life is best maintained by not firing rockets at Israel, not murdering 1200 of them during the 7th October invasion and not declaring war on Israel.

Originally Posted by Pierre

This discussion is pretty pointless atm. You’ve the got the pro-Hamas terrorist sycophants crowd such as Ianch99, and you’ve got the Israel has a right to do whatever it takes to destroy Hamas…such as myself.

Nothing is likely to happen to change either’s opinion, anytime soon, if ever.

Never seen Ian post anything that was "poro-Hamas terrorists" - unless you are equating supporting Palestinian rights as pro-Hamas, which, imho, is equally wrong as saying anyone who is pro-Israel's right to exist is a Zionist...

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

This discussion is pretty pointless atm. You’ve the got the pro-Hamas terrorist sycophants crowd such as Ianch99, and you’ve got the Israel has a right to do whatever it takes to destroy Hamas…such as myself.

Nothing is likely to happen to change either’s opinion, anytime soon, if ever.

I read this thread as you've got those who give carte blanche for Netanyahu to ignore international law and the lives of aid workers, civilians and hostages and do whatever it takes to cling to power.

Then you've got everyone else.

Thankfully, I've not read any pro-Hamas posts in this thread.

[Sephiroth]

Those who kick Israel in this thread do not adequately deprecate Hamas.
Hence the stigma of "pro-Hamas", even if not directly expressed.

None of the anti-Israel contributors offer a solution for removing the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah from the scene. It's a great pity that the Israeli government are such *******s that this clouds the Hamas issue. But Hamas need to be eliminated and they are to blame for all the civilian suffering.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Those who kick Israel in this thread do not adequately deprecate Hamas.
Hence the stigma of "pro-Hamas", even if not directly expressed.

None of the anti-Israel contributors offer a solution for removing the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah from the scene. It's a great pity that the Israeli government are such *******s that this clouds the Hamas issue. But Hamas need to be eliminated and they are to blame for all the civilian suffering.

This one was also done in your absence - I certainly don’t accept that criticism of Israel can only be done if every time you preface it with some kind of disclaimer at best framing and at worst justifying their actions in some way.

I don’t have my language policed on any other matter or war, and can judge every action independently on it’s own merits. I don’t see why condemnation of the Israeli state - which it would appear we hold similar regard for - warrants it.

If Israel stayed within the parameters others would find acceptable I’d be more than happy to frame it as such. However I’m not going to imply or infer they didn’t have a choice to do this because they absolutely did. It fails the “what if it was Putin?” test.

---------- Post added at 09:01 ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The Palestinian right to life is best maintained by not firing rockets at Israel, not murdering 1200 of them during the 7th October invasion and not declaring war on Israel.

The average Palestinian had just as little control over events as Israel did.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

This discussion is pretty pointless atm. You’ve the got the pro-Hamas terrorist sycophants crowd such as Ianch99, and you’ve got the Israel has a right to do whatever it takes to destroy Hamas…such as myself.

Nothing is likely to happen to change either’s opinion, anytime soon, if ever.

You disgust me. I have never said I support Hamas, quite the opposite.

My time here is done ...

[Sephiroth]

The average Palestinian is not under the same threat as the Hamas-runn Gazans. The issues are separate in the context of the Israel-Gaza war.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The average Palestinian is not under the same threat as the Hamas-runn Gazans. The issues are separate in the context of the Israel-Gaza war.

They are under a greater threat than the average Israeli.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

They are under a greater threat than the average Israeli.

That might be slightly true because of the disgusting Israeli government. But terrorise from neighbours within Israeli borders, not to mention the 1200, provides the rest of the truth.

However despicable the Israeli government may be, they need to destroy Hamas.

Also, don’t forget how that has spread in one form or another to the UK, including all jihadi type attacks/bombings/murders.


---------- Post added at 11:24 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

You disgust me. I have never said I support Hamas, quite the opposite.

My time here is done ...

The appropriate degree of balance is missing from your comments. And please don’t come back and say that 1200 vs alleged 50,000 is disproportionate; all Hamas has to to do is release the hostages that they should never have taken in the first place.