Pandemic (Swine) Flu

[slug]

Originally Posted by Osem

..... When was the last flu pandemic? They're not exactly common events either but using that as an excuse if things go seriously wrong won't be much comfort to all the dead will it. Surely the acid test when it comes to disaster planning is to be able to respond effectively when the worst happens, not just pray it doesn't.

This sort of thing doesn't inspire much confidence either!

But the WHO have said we are the best placed to deal with a flu pandemic.

As for the Airwave digital radio network, as far as I remember this ties all emergency services together and also works underground. This is a big technical feat. I wonder how many other countries have it?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well they have good planning by all objective methods, the quality of planning is decided by the facts on the ground and not the popularity of the party in power.

The popularity of the party in power isn't the issue, that's just a symptom of their ineptitude which is the real cause for concern.

WRT 7/7, the emergency services probably did as good a job as could be expected and acted heroically but there were clear shortcomings in the way in which the victims were dealt with at the time and serious failings of emergency communications systems which, so far as I know, have still to be sorted out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4810368.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ed-417081.html

I hope WHO is right and, of course, we can all learn lessons after events but the very fact that each time there has been a major emergency, basic issues such as communications failures seem to occur would indicate that planning for events which are known threats is still not adequate.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Osem

However, so many major events in the UK seem to quickly degenerate into a shambles that I'm afraid I'll reserve judgement on how we'll cope if it comes to the worst...

Still dont think you provided any evidence to back this up.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/shambles?view=uk

shambles

• noun 1 informal a state of complete disorder.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by slug

Still dont think you provided any evidence to back this up.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/shambles?view=uk

Well we can argue about terminolgy if you like - some entries from my thesaurus, Shambles: chaos, mess, muddle, confusion, disorder, disarray, ... Choose whichever you like.

The rest is only my opinion based on my observations of events over the years. Can you recall a single disaster after which there were no major concerns raised about the way in which it was handled? Thankfully we don't experience too many disasters, but in recent years the spate of major floods has, for example, highlighted just how bad our flood defences are (and still are) despite the known risk!

I have no evidence to back up my opinion other than our track record in past crises which as I've already shown, has left a lot to be desired even when the risk is longstanding and well known.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Osem

Well it's only my opinion based on my observations of events over the years. Can you recall a single disaster after which there were no major concerns raised about the way in which it was handled? Thankfully we don't experience too many disasters, but in recent years the spate of major floods has, for example, highlighted just how bad our flood defences are (and still are) despite the known risk!

I would agree that there have been concerns and problems but never, no where near a state of complete disorder.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by slug

But the WHO have said we are the best placed to deal with a flu pandemic.

Do they mean us, or just their Generation???

[Osem]

Originally Posted by slug

I would agree that there have been concerns and problems but never, no where near a state of complete disorder.

Well to be fair, I didn't use the phrase 'complete disorder' and wouldn't agree with it. I used the term shambles and I have provided several alternative words which are commonly used to mean the same thing and don't convey utter failure to cope. I also used the phrase "varying degrees of chaos" which would indicate that I don't view the nation's response to every crisis to be total or complete disorder. I just think events have proved we could do a lot better in such circumstances and if the entire nation's health is at risk, I'd like to think that the plans and resources which are in existence are up to the task.

[Pierre]

I'll be able to tell my grand kids that I survived SARS, Bird flu, swine flu, chimney flu, the millenium bug, the biggest recession ever experienced in the universe, AIDS, mad cow disease

No doubt in my life I'm due to face at least another dozen world ending events, and I think my odds at making it through are still quite good

[slug]

Originally Posted by Osem

Well to be fair, I didn't use the phrase 'complete disorder' and wouldn't agree with it. I used the term shambles and I have provided several alternative words which are commonly used to mean the same thing and don't convey utter failure to cope. I also used the phrase "varying degrees of chaos" which would indicate that I don't view the nation's response to every crisis to be total or complete disorder. I just think events have proved we could do a lot better in such circumstances and if the entire nation's health is at risk, I'd like to think that the plans and resources which are in existence are up to the task.

You used the word "shambles" of which the Oxford Dictionary definition is "complete disorder". As for "varying degrees of chaos" well emergency situations do tend to throw unexpected things at you, by their very nature. I still think that as a nation we tend to deal with emergencies very well. I once again repeat the WHO have said we are best placed to deal with this flu pandemic.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by danielf

What's more, Osem would probably be the first to complain about the massive waste of money if we were to prepare for such snow fall every year...

Well that'd depend on how much was spent and on what, where and how. Having vast numbers of snow ploughs sat idle for years isn't the best idea but being able to use what you have is pretty basic and almost running out of salt is ridiculous isn't it? Likewise finding ourselves with virtually no gas reserves and at the mercy of international energy companies and the likes of Russia isn't a nice place to be but that's where we still are thanks to HMG's short sightedness.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Osem

Well that'd depend on how much was spent and on what, where and how. Having vast numbers of snow ploughs sat idle for years isn't the best idea but being able to use what you have is pretty basic and almost running out of salt is ridiculous isn't it? Likewise finding ourselves with virtually no gas reserves and at the mercy of international energy companies and the likes of Russia isn't a nice place to be but that's where we still are thanks to HMG's short sightedness.

".....almost running out of salt...." so we didnt run out of salt and ".......virtually no gas reserves......." cant remember the last time my gas cooker failed to cook for me. Seems we coped OK.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by slug

You used the word "shambles" of which the Oxford Dictionary definition is "complete disorder".

So what? Get out your Oxford University thesaurus and check its exhaustive list of alternatives listed to the word 'shambles' all of which are appropriate to this discussion and don't convey a total degree of anything. If I'd used one of those, would it alter the argument one jot? You acknowledge my use of the phrase 'varying degrees of chaos' so you clearly understand my meaning and are now arguing about simply about a choice of word. Frankly I'd rather we were debating HMG's ability to deal with a flu pandemic.

---------- Post added at 13:10 ---------- Previous post was at 13:05 ----------

Originally Posted by slug

".....almost running out of salt...." so we didnt run out of salt and ".......virtually no gas reserves......." cant remember the last time my gas cooker failed to cook for me. Seems we coped OK.

There were widespread reports of salt stocks being either low or unavailable during the snow.

We coped with gas shortages so well that the prices went up 40% and, in the wake of Russia turning off the taps, had our Eurpoean suppliers decided to divert gas for their own needs your gas cooker would soon have gone out.

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/energy/tories-worried-by-low-gas-storage-levels-$1274998.htm

Britain had just four days of natural gas in storage during the recent cold weather, it has been revealed

I'd say 4 days supply left is pretty appalling. National strategic planning clearly isn't HMG's forte is it.....

[slug]

Originally Posted by Osem

So what? Get out your Oxford University thesaurus and check its exhaustive list of alternatives listed to the word 'shambles' all of which are appropriate to this discussion and don't convey a total degree of anything. If I'd used one of those, would it alter the argument one jot? You acknowledge my use of the phrase 'varying degrees of chaos' so you clearly understand my meaning and are now arguing about simply about a choice of word. Frankly I'd rather we were debating HMG's ability to deal with a flu pandemic.

It just that Shambles is to strong a word to use.

Frankly I'd rather we were debating HMG's ability to deal with a flu pandemic

OK.
I will repeat it one more time the WHO have said we are best placed to deal with the flu pandemic. Do you know something that the World Health Organisation don't.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by slug

Do you know something that the World Health Organisation don't.

Yes I realise that and I've explained the reasons for what I wrote several times now. I hope they're right but I don't think the WHO has such an in-depth knowledge of all the UK's internal workings, infrastructure etc. that it can be sure just how well (or badly) we'll cope if the worst happens. What's their view based on and how much relies on what they've been told by HMG about our state of readiness as opposed to actual proof. Given HMG's longstanding reliance on spin and their aversion to bad news of any sort, I wouldn't trust them to offer an honest and unbiased appraisal to anyone about anything.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Osem

I hope they're right but I don't think the WHO has such an in-depth knowledge of all the UK's internal workings and infrastructure that it can be sure just how well or badly we'll cope if the worst happens.

Yes Osem I am sure that you have a better in-depth knowledge of all the UK's internal workings and infrastructure than the World Health Organization.

Are you now suggesting that not only are HMG incompetent but also are the WHO.

Is there anyone in you opinion out there fit for their purpose?