Identity Cards - Page 3

duncant403 · 12-11-2003, 09:47

The one flaw no-one seems to have picked up on yet:
Apparently we need a new "definitive" ID card because existing ID (such as passports, driving licences) don't reliably confirm your identity... So if we currently have no way of confirming our identity, how does the government intend to confirm our identities in order to issue these "reliable" ID cards in the first place?

I can imagine it now: walk into the government office to get ID card; "Hello, my name's John Smith and I've come for my ID card." "No haven't got a passport or driving licence, so what now?"

In order to issue us with ID cards, the government has to first confirm exactly who we are. They would have us believe there is currently no way or reliably doing this - but if there is then why do we need another ID?

Bex · 12-11-2003, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

I certainly have nothing to hide yet I don't want to be made to show I have nothing to hide, which is what I see this card symbolises. Apart from possible religious viewpoints there are plenty of reasons why law-abiding people wouldn't want such a card.

And what will the criminals do? Just carry fake ones.

i was waiting to see what/if u would post....i know you and i have discuss this issue in depth.......

i am not sure how i feel about these cards

Salu · 12-11-2003, 11:08

...and from another angle. WHat about the implications of face transplants on ID cards. If you have a major accident and end up with severe facial trauma which would need a facial transplant. Which picture would you use?

If you were a criminal and wanted to change your ID, you could steal an ID card and have a face transplant...[edit] or simply change the photo!

http://forum.nthellworld.co.uk/showt...8805#post78805

basa · 12-11-2003, 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by tabatha

I have no problem with the concept of i.d cards..but why do the powers that be have to use such pathetic excuses to justify something that half the government appear to be against?..As has been pointed out,terrorists will get them if/when they need them...and illegals will continue to arrive without them..how are cards going to remove those that are refused permission to stay??This can take up to 3yrs to decide..Do they get a"maybe" card while they are waiting??..Are the police going to stop everyone to see if they are "aok"..Driving licences and motor insurance are compulsory...does everyone have them...and do those that have-not always get caught??!!

I assume that (amongst other things I can't think of atm) they will be used for such things as when applying for Healthcare, Jobs, Social Benefits, Banking, UK entry, proof of age (?) in pubs / clubs etc, or when asked by a Police Officer.

More use than drivers licence and two bills etc. !!

zoombini · 12-11-2003, 13:01

Yes, and will then every estalishment that you go into, employer etc be able to get access to personal information that will be stored about you?

And how would we go about getting one?
Show a few pieces of info oh say Birth Certificate etc.
All things that can be forged, allowing false cards to be obtained because the gov issuing dept concerned is overrun & understaffed.

Sort of ruins the point of them.

basa · 12-11-2003, 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoombini

Yes, and will then every estalishment that you go into, employer etc be able to get access to personal information that will be stored about you?

Obviously your local pub / video store wouldn't have access to personal info., but as yet we don't know exactly what info. will be visible on the card - maybe DoB, photo, probably not address (although that is on a drivers licence), dunno what else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoombini

And how would we go about getting one?
Show a few pieces of info oh say Birth Certificate etc.
All things that can be forged, allowing false cards to be obtained because the gov issuing dept concerned is overrun & understaffed.

Sort of ruins the point of them.

Same as Passport I suppose, but I don't know what checks the Passport Office run.

Virtually anything can be forged except fingerprints and iris scans. Nothing can be perfect.

Ramrod · 12-11-2003, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoombini

And how would we go about getting one?
Show a few pieces of info oh say Birth Certificate etc.
All things that can be forged, allowing false cards to be obtained because the gov issuing dept concerned is overrun & understaffed.

Sort of ruins the point of them.

Not really. If biometric info is stored on them then each set of biometric info. can be associated with one name only.
Each person can only be assoc. with their own biometric info. Unless they have eye transplants or something....
Thus, since the biometric data on the card has to match the person carrying the card then even if the name on the card is false they are stuck with that false name for ever after and can be monitered with that name.

ntluser · 12-11-2003, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellwear

Oh dear, where's Graham, he's normally straight here when theres an argument to be had!!!

Just proves me right, most people in the UK would like to have an ID card!

I think people might be more pre-disposed to the idea if they could be absolutely sure that they could not be copied or altered.

It would be great to only need one piece of ID, but the snag is it would also be easy for someone else with the right skills and equipment to hijack your life.

Virtually any piece of ID can be fabricated because invariably the equipment and information to do so is in the public domain. For example, the computer industry said that the introduction of CDs would see an end to software piracy but it still thrives because CD writers were sold to the public. It will only work if the method of production and media used is kept in-house by the government i.e. the MOD. And even then I'm not certain ID cards would be safe.

ntluser · 12-11-2003, 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by basa

Obviously your local pub / video store wouldn't have access to personal info., but as yet we don't know exactly what info. will be visible on the card - maybe DoB, photo, probably not address (although that is on a drivers licence), dunno what else.

Same as Passport I suppose, but I don't know what checks the Passport Office run.

Virtually anything can be forged except fingerprints and iris scans. Nothing can be perfect.

I'll bet even now some Mission Impossible team is already working out ways round the fingerprint and iris scans.

I wonder what would happen if there were public tests of the system and someone found a way round e.g. hacking the computer attached to the fingerprint or iris scanner.

This tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds...

12-11-2003, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Not really. If biometric info is stored on them then each set of biometric info. can be associated with one name only.
Each person can only be assoc. with their own biometric info. Unless they have eye transplants or something....
Thus, since the biometric data on the card has to match the person carrying the card then even if the name on the card is false they are stuck with that false name for ever after and can be monitered with that name.

That will only hold true for some forms of biometric information. You'd have a hard time faking a retinal scan, but an iris scan could be forged with a suitable contact lens. Similarly fingerprints can be faked using a thin latex fingerprint with the appropriate pattern on it.

*Edit* - Thinking about it, I wonder what the equipment that does a retinal scan do if you wore a clear contact lens, but with the centre darkened to obscure the pupil. Wouldn`t work on a machine with a human operator, as you can see a part of the iris as well, but would an automated machine be intelligent enough to realise, or would it just assume a hardware failure.

ntluser · 12-11-2003, 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

That will only hold true for some forms of biometric information. You'd have a hard time faking a retinal scan, but an iris scan could be forged with a suitable contact lens. Similarly fingerprints can be faked using a thin latex fingerprint with the appropriate pattern on it.

Nice one. Glad to see that someone shares my view that the protection systems can be circumvented by some lateral thinking and watching Mission Impossible & a few good 'caper' movies. Be interesting if the government invite hackers to test their system before they implement it.

After all, if Microsoft can't make a patchless operating system what chance have the British government got of making ID cards secure?

**Chris** · 12-11-2003, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntluser

After all, if Microsoft can't make a patchless operating system what chance have the British government got of making ID cards secure?

None at all. Just one of the several reasons why I will not carry one.

Alan Waddington · 12-11-2003, 22:34

I seem to carry a shed load of card's already. Another would be Ok if it could take the place of at least one of the others. I'm not too fussed about finger tip scans, but don't really fancy the idea of retinal scans for every transaction.

Is it going to be illegal to go out without your id card. Normally I leave all my cards behind and just take cash if I'm going to the swimming pool or the beach. Are the new id cards going to be waterproof?

kronas · 13-11-2003, 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by pem

LOL. talk about paranoid.

What do you think crdit reference agencies do now, virtually everything you do is already tracked by some computerised system.

paranoid i have a good reason to be paranoid trust no one but yourself in terms of the government and corporate compaines who hold info give as little information as possible and dont use anything thats not needed

credit refrence system is diffarent though

kronas · 13-11-2003, 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognitas

frankly i'm getting sick of this paranoid attitude-anyone would think we live in a gulag instead of a democratically run society.

incog.

come on incog its not all paranoia you think we live in a democracy / to be fair we live in a free ish country but we are still bound to the stupidity and beurocracy of our systems most noteably our legal system