In House Techs to TUPE in Sept?

[joehill]

Spot on iSteve
'cept recognition only applies to existing bargaining units, installers, service and networks in Telewest areas.
The CWU needs to assess its strength in NTL units before approaching NTLi - which it will do.
NTL reps are already in touch with Telewest ones.

[iSteve]

Thanks joehill

I do know that CWU are very keen on attracting new members within NTL and are building up numbers so that they will be able to extend recognition to new areas within NTL. However this is providing easier in some areas and much harder in others.

Ultimately it is down to individuals taking the initiative, and starting an organising campaign within their workplace. It's then collectively down to all the staff joining up, helping with the campaign and staying informed. CWU cannot get recognition without the numbers and the support of staff.

Anyone interested in finding out more should call the CWU Organising Department on 0800 731 7434. Or better still, you can call/email Doug Rafferty, he is the CWU's telecomms organiser and responsible for CWU recruitment within NTL: drafferty@cwu.org, 07714 504426. He will be able to answer any questions you may have about organising and let you know the best way of getting more information and getting involved.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by iSteve

CWU is the most appropriate union for the communications industry and also by no means a 'tame' beast - when threatened they bite back.

BECTU is only brought up because they had recogntion within NTL Broadcast. This in itself was simply a carry-over from the fact National Transcommunications Ltd, an old broadcasting company (what we knew as NTL Broadcast) was acquired by CableTel (what we think of as NTL now), at and AT THAT TIME this acquired company already HAD union recognition with BECTU. When CableTel renamed the whole shebang as 'NTL' this didn't mean BECTU had recognition spread across the company. And now, NTL Broadcast has now been sold off again, and no longer part of NTL.

Therefore BECTU for all intents and purposes are irrelevant to NTL again, except for where they have made already have built up members. However BECTU is a very SMALL union and does not have the strength to make a big difference in a company like NTL.

Your points are most valid, ntl however seemed to strike a cosy deal and recognise BECTU very quickly after some CWU reps (who already had ex-CWC members who transferred to ntl in the merger) started appearing at ntl sites to sign the workers up.

CableTel had owned NTL Broadcast for a few years when this happened, and CableTel had always mouthed their distaste for unions through management and HR. To suddenly find a communication from CableTel management by then calling themselves "ntl" claiming to recognise a union was a bit of a shock. It all became clear however that they had done a deal with a tame union like BECTU, because they probably feared the CWU getting a foothold.

I joined a union (not BECTU or CWC) before my company was taken over by ntl, after being warned about CableTel's practices. That was back in 1996 and I'm still a member to this day, I am not generally a union follower and they are not much use in the communications industry, but I keep paying as there is always the representation if I ever need it.

[Womble]

Originally Posted by iSteve

Thanks joehill

I do know that CWU are very keen on attracting new members within NTL .

They are leaving it a bit late imho!!
I've been nagging them to start aggressivly recruiteing, but alas they just meet in a pub?!?!?!

I think its tooo late, they missed the oppertunity about 6mths/1 year ago

---------- Post added at 22:55 ---------- Previous post was at 22:54 ----------

Originally Posted by Womble

They are leaving it a bit late imho!!
I've been nagging them to start aggressivly recruiteing, but alas they just meet in a pub?!?!?!

I think its tooo late, they missed the oppertunity about 6mths/1 year ago

Yes I know, my spelling sucks. toooo much red wine :-)

[iSteve]

Originally Posted by Womble

They are leaving it a bit late imho!!
I've been nagging them to start aggressivly recruiteing, but alas they just meet in a pub?!?!?!

I think its tooo late, they missed the oppertunity about 6mths/1 year ago

The only thing the CWU can do without inside help from staff is to hand out leaflets, outside offices. This rarely works as the managers can just confiscate any leaflets when staff enter the building and warn/scare people off joining. This also triggers management off to the fact you're organising there and they can act to stop it dead in it's tracks.

The only really successful way to recruit is for unions to have supporters working inside the workplace. Unions aren't about headquarters and officers, they're about workplace unity and organisation. The structure (officers, training courses etc) are only there to provide backup, support and help/advice. The heart of any successful union is in the front-line reps - and activists - in the workplace.

The vast majority of successful union organising campaigns happen when there is already a small but hardcore support base within the company they are targetting, people who are prepared to convince their fellow coworkers to join, spread leaflets outside work, organise meetings, educate others on how unions work, etc.

If they've got that, then they will provide all the support that's needed to those activists - as much advise and training as they need.

In my own case, I had my own enthusiasm and the support of my union, but my co-workers were not interested in finding out more or getting involved and so unfortunately my efforts didn't get very far.

The key thing to understand about a union is that you ARE the union - you, and your fellow co-workers. The group you send your dues to is just your support network (and a very good one at that). The staff reps/actiists need the support and backup of their union - but by the same token, the union cannot function or even get off the ground without the full support of a dedicated group of staff willing to serve as activist reps within the company

Originally Posted by Womble

Yes I know, my spelling sucks. toooo much red wine :-)

Maybe I need more drink in my life too, I had a nasty habbit of taking life too seriously

[Womble]

Originally Posted by iSteve

The vast majority of successful union organising campaigns happen when there is already a small but hardcore support base within the company they are targetting, people who are prepared to convince their fellow coworkers to join, spread leaflets outside work, organise meetings, educate others on how unions work, etc.

All network engineers anf half the Service guys are members in Surrey!!!!!

Lets 'ave it

[spike7451]

We were made redundent here in N.Ireland last September as we were deemed 'no longer financially viable'. We seen it coming tho,over the year we lost 8 tech's taking us down to 3 so when none were replaced,we knew it was inevitable.
BTW,our Network Tech's over here are waiting to hear of their future.

Originally Posted by spike7451

We were made redundent here in N.Ireland last September as we were deemed 'no longer financially viable'. We seen it coming tho,over the year we lost 8 tech's taking us down to 3 so when none were replaced,we knew it was inevitable.
BTW,our Network Tech's over here are waiting to hear of their future.

Switch Engineers are now on 90 days, dont have the figures of how many are going. There will less to keep the telephone switches running after this

[Womble]

CWU Meeting, to be held
St Elpheges Center
118 Stafford Rd Wallington.

If you live near, you owe it to your self to come

"Fight the Power"

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:31 ----------

Originally Posted by unlimited

Switch Engineers are now on 90 days, dont have the figures of how many are going. There will less to keep the telephone switches running after this

Spoke to one of the switch guys last week, less than impressed to say the least!!
Problem being, specially for the ex-CWC guys is complacency, been here how many times before??? If they treat the managers like dirt, doesn't really look good for the front line soldiers

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by unlimited

Switch Engineers are now on 90 days, dont have the figures of how many are going. There will less to keep the telephone switches running after this

It sounds like more are going in South Wales, there seems to be a bit of concern and they have already taken hits in the switch area over the past few years. I dont see how they can maintain the switches with any less, they have three switch sites a fair distance apart.

I guess it will depend on the call-out rota being reduced to an unacceptable level, the way they are going there will be so few they will be on call every week.

The Switch, Headend and Network Techs are the areas I normally get to hear about, but the jungle drums have gone very quiet the past few weeks. I reckon that could be a sign that people are worried.

[tw67]

TUPE law is a joke and has been hi-jacked by companies who want to avoid paying redundancy payments. They outsource the contract and transfer employees knowing full well that over a certain time tupe'd employees will be eventually made redundant.Happened to 640 of us when we were TUPE'd from IBM to Sanmina SCI, 6 months later the headcount was cut to 320, 1 year later another 90 odd were made redundant(under 100 redundancies means only 30 days notice given) 1 year later closure and jobs moved to Hungary.During the 1st round of redundancies where they let go 340 people ,18 employees who had joined a union took them to a tribunial in 2003 as sanmina were still employing contractors on site,all 18 eventually won their case and collectivley were awarded £180K.S anmina appealed the findings and last week 16 of the 18 of the appeals were upheld .Only protection you get from tupe is comparable terms and conditions are offered by the new employers,our ibm pensions were deferred till you reach age of 50 which suited employees over 50 with long service,we then were offered into a money plus scheme which was in no way comparable.Your terms and conditions are safe under Tupe for 2 years , my advice to yous is get yourself in a union

Hope everything goes well for all affected but looks like ntl are pulling a fast one here, im more bitter towards IBM as i gave them 20 years good service and they transferred me to a cowboy outfit knowing full well the remit was going to end up in us losing our jobs

best of luck

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 ----------

also ibm tuped 530 people to lenovo in feb 2005 by september this year it is expected only 190 will remain

[injuneer]

Originally Posted by Escapee

It sounds like more are going in South Wales, there seems to be a bit of concern and they have already taken hits in the switch area over the past few years. I dont see how they can maintain the switches with any less, they have three switch sites a fair distance apart.

I guess it will depend on the call-out rota being reduced to an unacceptable level, the way they are going there will be so few they will be on call every week.

The Switch, Headend and Network Techs are the areas I normally get to hear about, but the jungle drums have gone very quiet the past few weeks. I reckon that could be a sign that people are worried.

Telewest have 55 switches which were manned on a 1 man per switch basis, Ntl operated on 1 and a half switches per man and had about 70 odd switch engineers left after the last cull. I've heard that around 20 or so engineers will have to go now that they have rationalised the areas to cover both company's switches. I don't expect for one minute this will be the last round for switch engineers. Both Ntl and Telewest have a network of transit switches as well as the local ones. I doubt they will need both sets of transits in the near future. It is envisaged that all switches will be replaced by VOIP technology in the next 5 years or so anyway.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by injuneer

Telewest have 55 switches which were manned on a 1 man per switch basis, Ntl operated on 1 and a half switches per man and had about 70 odd switch engineers left after the last cull. I've heard that around 20 or so engineers will have to go now that they have rationalised the areas to cover both company's switches. I don't expect for one minute this will be the last round for switch engineers. Both Ntl and Telewest have a network of transit switches as well as the local ones. I doubt they will need both sets of transits in the near future. It is envisaged that all switches will be replaced by VOIP technology in the next 5 years or so anyway.

I dont suppose for one minute it will be the last cuts, they had 2 men per switch not that many years ago. To have one man per switch is almost impossible from an on-call point of view, its no wonder comments have been made about people not being happy with the callout rota. I did a very short spell of one-in-two call out rota, and I was very pi**ed off with the situation.

Even when there were 4 headend people spread between 2 sites, it averaged out more like 1-in-3 with holidays and sickness. And believe me the sickness will go up if they start tightning the screws even more. They can make all the threats they want about disciplinary procedures, but putting people under that sort of pressure will make them go off sick with stress.

I cant believe with 3 switch sites in South Wales, about 20 miles between the closest and about 60-70 miles between the furthest, how they can cope with one man per one and a half switches.

When there has been cuts before in switch, network and headend, people have been moved around to save them. These people are usually the more experienced who are not directly in the front line, I guess these guys must surely be at the end of the road now.

I bet the Telewest switch guys are really happy about the merger.

[Ricky B]

Originally Posted by tw67

TUPE law is a joke and has been hi-jacked by companies who want to avoid paying redundancy payments. They outsource the contract and transfer employees knowing full well that over a certain time tupe'd employees will be eventually made redundant.Happened to 640 of us when we were TUPE'd from IBM to Sanmina SCI, 6 months later the headcount was cut to 320, 1 year later another 90 odd were made redundant(under 100 redundancies means only 30 days notice given) 1 year later closure and jobs moved to Hungary.During the 1st round of redundancies where they let go 340 people ,18 employees who had joined a union took them to a tribunial in 2003 as sanmina were still employing contractors on site,all 18 eventually won their case and collectivley were awarded £180K.S anmina appealed the findings and last week 16 of the 18 of the appeals were upheld .Only protection you get from tupe is comparable terms and conditions are offered by the new employers,our ibm pensions were deferred till you reach age of 50 which suited employees over 50 with long service,we then were offered into a money plus scheme which was in no way comparable.Your terms and conditions are safe under Tupe for 2 years , my advice to yous is get yourself in a union

Hope everything goes well for all affected but looks like ntl are pulling a fast one here, im more bitter towards IBM as i gave them 20 years good service and they transferred me to a cowboy outfit knowing full well the remit was going to end up in us losing our jobs

best of luck

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 ----------

also ibm tuped 530 people to lenovo in feb 2005 by september this year it is expected only 190 will remain

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 ----------

There is not any time limit regarding TUPE

[zorroboy]

This brief describes the purpose of the TUPE regulations, what is covered by the regulations, the employer and employee position in a transfer, redundancy and union recognition.
TUPE is an acronym for ’Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981’.

Purpose
The TUPE Regulations preserve employees’ terms and conditions when a business or undertaking, or part of one, is transferred to a new employer. Any provision of any agreement (whether a contract of employment or not) is void so far as it would exclude or limit the rights granted under the Regulations.

The Regulations have the effect that:

Employees employed by the previous employer when the undertaking changes hands automatically become employees of the new employer on the same terms and conditions. It is as if their contracts of employment had originally been made with the new employer. Thus employees’ continuity of employment is preserved, as are their terms and conditions of employment under their contracts of employment (except for certain occupational pension rights).

Representatives of employees (i.e. the TSSA) affected have a right to be informed about the transfer. They must also be consulted about any measures which the old or new employer envisages taking concerning affected employees.

Transfers covered by the Regulations
The Regulations apply when an undertaking or part of an undertaking is transferred from one employer to another.

Some examples of transfers are:

where all or part of a sole trader’s business or partnership is sold or otherwise transferred;
where a company, or part of it, is bought or acquired by another, provided this is done by the second company buying or acquiring the assets and then running the business and not acquiring the shares only;
where two companies cease to exist and combine to form a third;
where a contract to provide goods or services is transferred in circumstances which amount to the transfer of a business or undertaking to a new employer.

The Regulations can apply regardless of the size of the transferred undertaking. Thus the Regulations equally apply to the transfer of a large business with many thousand employees or of a very small one (such as a shop, pub or garage) and apply equally to the public or private sector.

Transfers not covered by the Regulations
The Regulations do not apply to the following:

transfers by share take-over because, when a company’s shares are sold to new shareholders, there is no transfer of the business - the same company continues to be the employer;
transfers of assets only (for example, the sale of equipment alone would not be covered, but the sale of a going concern including equipment would be covered);
transfers of a contract to provide goods or services where this does not involve the transfer of a business or part of a business;
transfers of undertakings situated outside the United Kingdom.

Those provisions of the Regulations which relate to dismissal of employees because of the transfer, the duty to inform and consult representatives and the failure to inform and consult them as required, do not apply to employees who, under their contracts of employment, normally work outside the United Kingdom.

Employer’s position in a transfer
Under the Regulations, when an undertaking is transferred the position of the previous employer and the new employer is as follows:

The new employer takes over the contracts of employment of all employees who were employed in the undertaking immediately before the transfer, or who would have been so employed if they had not been unfairly dismissed for a reason connected with the transfer. An employer cannot just pick and choose which employees to take on.
The new employer takes over all rights and obligations arising from those contracts of employment, except criminal liabilities and rights and obligations relating to provisions about benefits for old age, invalidity or survivors in employees’ occupational pension schemes.
The new employer takes over any collective agreements made on behalf of the employees and in force immediately before the transfer
Neither the new employer nor the previous one may fairly dismiss an employee because of the transfer or a reason connected with it, unless the reason for the dismissal is an economic, technical or organisational reason entailing changes in the workforce. If there is no such reason, the dismissal will be unfair. If there is such a reason, and it is the cause or main cause of the dismissal, the dismissal will be fair provided an employment tribunal decides that the employer acted reasonably in the circumstances in treating that reason as sufficient to justify dismissal. If, in this case, there is a redundancy situation, the usual redundancy procedures will apply.
The new employer may not unless the contract of employment so provides unilaterally worsen the terms and conditions of employment of any transferred employee.
The previous and new employers must inform and consult representatives of the employees.

Employees’ position in a transfer
When an undertaking is transferred the position of the employees of the previous or new employers is as follows:
An employee claiming to have been unfairly dismissed because of a transfer has the right to complain to an employment tribunal.
Transferred employees who find that there has been a fundamental change for the worse in their terms and conditions of employment as a result of the transfer generally have the right to terminate their contract and claim unfair dismissal before an employment tribunal, on the grounds that actions of the employer have forced them to resign. Employees may not make this type of claim solely on the grounds that the identity of their employer has changed unless the circumstances of an individual case change and that change is significant and to the employee’s detriment.

In both the above cases dismissal because of a relevant transfer will be unfair unless an employment tribunal decides that an economic, technical or organisational reason entailing changes in the workforce was the main cause of the dismissal and that the employer acted reasonably in the circumstances in treating that reason as sufficient to justify dismissal. Even if the dismissal is considered fair, employees may still be entitled to a redundancy payment.

Employees employed in the undertaking immediately before the transfer (or who would have been so employed had they not been unfairly dismissed) for a reason connected with the transfer automatically become employees of the new employer, unless they inform either the new or the previous employer that they object to being transferred. In this case the contract of employment with the previous employer is terminated by the transfer of undertaking but the employee is not dismissed. The previous employer may re-engage the employee.

An employee’s period of continuous employment is not broken by a transfer, and, for the purposes of calculating entitlement to statutory employment rights, the date on which the period of continuous employment started is the date on which the employee started work with the old employer. This should be stated in the employee’s written statement of terms and conditions; if it is not, or if there is a dispute over the date on which the period of continuous employment started, the matter can be referred to an employment tribunal

Transferred employees retain all the rights and obligations existing under their contracts of employment with the previous employer and these are transferred to the new employer, with the exception that the previous employer’s rights and obligations relating to benefits for old age, invalidity or survivors under any employees’ occupational pension schemes are not transferred. If the new employer does not provide comparable overall terms and conditions, including pension arrangements, an employee may have a claim for unfair dismissal.

Occupational pension rights earned up to the time of the transfer are protected by social security legislation and pension trust arrangements.

Redundancy
Dismissed employees may be entitled to redundancy payments. Employers must also ensure that the required period for consultation with employees’ representatives is allowed. Entitlement to redundancy payments will not be affected by the failure of any claim which an employee may make for unfair dismissal compensation.

Where there are redundancies and it is unclear whether the Regulations apply, it will also be unclear whether the previous or the new employer is responsible for making redundancy payments. In such cases employees should consider whether to make any claims against both employers.

Trade union recognition
If the transferred undertaking maintains an identity distinct from the remainder of the new employer’s business, the new employer will be considered to recognise an independent trade union, in respect of employees transferred, to the same extent that it was recognised by the previous employer. If the undertaking does not keep its separate identity, the previous trade union recognition lapses, and it will then be up to the union and the employer to renegotiate recognition.

Rep Action List
1. Applying the TUPE legislation is a very complicated exercise; any rep who becomes aware of a proposed transfer, should in the first instance contact their Negotiations Officer for advice on whether there are potential TUPE implications.

2. It is important to remember that consultation taken under TUPE is "undertaken with a view to seeking agreement". Agreement means consent from both parties and not one side unilaterally imposing its view.

3. Members should be aware that successfully claiming constructive dismissal is a very substantial legal hurdle because the scope of a justifiable "economic, technical or organisational reason" is potentially very wide.

The briefs in this section provide guidance and some basic details of employment rights. They do not attempt to be comprehensive, and should not be taken as an authoritative statement of the law.

Zorroboy