Muslims to march in London

[driver_problems]

Originally Posted by Stuart C

The kinds of people who would start a fight over religion or football would start a fight anyway. They would just find another excuse if they didn't have football or religion.

its all about groups of people hanging about together really, when it comes down to it. Anything that is not the group becomes the agressor and enemy by default

[greencreeper]

Islam for you. One of a few cults (the other main one being Catholicism) where the leader is dead. Possibly never to have even existed. Interesting that the keystones of civilisation should be our greatest weaknesses. Makes you wonder where and when it will all end.

It's funny how there is so much Muslim discontent with these cartoons as they are 'offensive', when the representatives of this religion (MCB) frequently say that homosexuality 'should not be accepted' and is 'harmful to society'. But of course, that is totally acceptable . Double standards again.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Macca371

It's funny how there is so much Muslim discontent with these cartoons as they are 'offensive', when the representatives of this religion (MCB) frequently say that homosexuality 'should not be accepted' and is 'harmful to society'. But of course, that is totally acceptable . Double standards again.

I'm not saying I agree with this but I think the difference is that the cartoons were viewed by Muslims as directly mocking them. With what their faith says about homosexuality, it may be offensive to those it affects but is not regarded as 'mocking' them.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I take it some of the people posting on this thread will now get irate at there local churches for backing such a demo.

Yes, I would, because they'd be protesting about something they didn't understand.

I do not believe that your average western christian can understand such fanatical devotion to someone long dead. The christian church gave up on that hundreds of years ago.

Similarly, the church 'leaders' in the christian church are no longer in the positions of power they once were - again, something that changed hundreds of years ago.

Therefore, a protest by those churches in support of Muslims is inappropriate. I know they mean well, because they want to show solidarity, but marching against free speech isn't the way to go.

---------- Post added at 08:36 ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

yeah but at least there isnt a tone of racism when they do huh..........

Maybe because christianity transcends any notion of race?

---------- Post added at 08:38 ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 ----------

Originally Posted by Paul

History causes more conflict than most other causes so saying it's history is not a good thing.

I reckon it's religion that has caused more conflict than any other cause. Just look around you...

---------- Post added at 08:49 ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 ----------

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I have said it many times here but I'll say it again.....some people here are British only because their passport says they are.

And some people here are not British at all, yet they live and work here as if they were. You'd never notice they weren't British, they'll even cheer for England in the World Cup (OK, maybe not when their birth nation is on the pitch.)

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

---------- Post added at 08:36 ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 ----------

Maybe because christianity transcends any notion of race?

---------- Post added at 08:38 ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 ----------

Islam too. Hence worldwide you see muslims of every colour/race, white, black, brown, asian, american, ehnglish, scottish, welsh, chinese etc etc etc

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Russ D

I'm not saying I agree with this but I think the difference is that the cartoons were viewed by Muslims as directly mocking them. With what their faith says about homosexuality, it may be offensive to those it affects but is not regarded as 'mocking' them.

The problem is the media over here gives the impression that the islamic world is upset over a cartoon of mohammed with a bomb in his turban (not that mohammed would have worn a turban...)
This gives the impression that he islamic world are making a mountain out of a molehill, after all, how can such a cartoon like that be truly offensive?

When in actuallity, Danish muslims have put together their own "dodgy dossier" and taken it to the middle east, which includes the published cartoons, but also includes some far more offensive images along with alot of other anti-islamic properganda.

Think of the reaction like this:
A dossier of images mocking jesus is released, it contains pictures of jesus copulating with a goat, and also that well known image of the jesus action figure.
Christians get understandably offended at the obscene images included, not hugely offended by the action figure.
The media reports that the christians are offended by the action figure and don't mention the goat images.
Non-christians fail to understand what all the fuss is about.

---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Islam too. Hence worldwide you see muslims of every colour/race, white, black, brown, asian, american, ehnglish, scottish, welsh, chinese etc etc etc

What of the Oma though?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

The problem is the media over here gives the impression that the islamic world is upset over a cartoon of mohammed with a bomb in his turban (not that mohammed would have worn a turban...)
This gives the impression that he islamic world are making a mountain out of a molehill, after all, how can such a cartoon like that be truly offensive?

When in actuallity, Danish muslims have put together their own "dodgy dossier" and taken it to the middle east, which includes the published cartoons, but also includes some far more offensive images along with alot of other anti-islamic properganda.

Think of the reaction like this:
A dossier of images mocking jesus is released, it contains pictures of jesus copulating with a goat, and also that well known image of the jesus action figure.
Christians get understandably offended at the obscene images included, not hugely offended by the action figure.
The media reports that the christians are offended by the action figure and don't mention the goat images.
Non-christians fail to understand what all the fuss is about.

---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------



What of the Oma though?

By Oma, do you mean the muslim Ummah. The term/phrase Ummah refers to the collection of muslims worlwide. So if someone speaks of the Muslim Ummah they are referring to all the muslims of the time, irregardless of their race. You can also refer to an Ummah from a specific time and place, eg) the British Ummah or the Ummah at the time of the Prophet.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Islam too. Hence worldwide you see muslims of every colour/race, white, black, brown, asian, american, ehnglish, scottish, welsh, chinese etc etc etc

So why do you suggest that any criticism of Muslims is de facto racism?

I know that the argument of "if they don't like it they can go back home" is not very good - as you have said, for many Muslims in the UK this is home. I think to assume that anyone uttering something along these lines is intrinsically racist, is - of itself - a prejudice.

However, I do believe that if 'they' don't like it, then they are free to leave the UK and find another country where they'll like it better. In this case, whether it's immigrants going 'back' or UK natives choosing to go to the country of their family's origin - then that should be their right and their choice.

But equally, since they have the right to live in the UK and chose to do so, then I suggest the sooner they start accepting that the UK is different to the country of their birth or heritage, the better.

As someone said; "When in Rome, do as the Romans" - that means finding out about the place and then aiming to adapt your own lifestyle to fit in - rather than demand any kind of accomodation.

And that applies to immigrants and their UK born offspring, equally. Whatever their race or creed.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

In my opinion most muslims like living in the UK. Most muslims living in the UK also abide by the laws and regualtions of the UK. Showing displeasure at something against our religion does not mean we are unhappy with living in the UK (and again Im talking about legal peaceful organised demos). I just feel that whenever muslims in the UK show their displeasure at anything, the go back to your own country argument is used without any thought or relevance, and its an argument applied at a blanket level as such.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

In my opinion most muslims like living in the UK. Most muslims living in the UK also abide by the laws and regualtions of the UK. Showing displeasure at something against our religion does not mean we are unhappy with living in the UK (and again Im talking about legal peaceful organised demos). I just feel that whenever muslims in the UK show their displeasure at anything, the go back to your own country argument is used without any thought or relevance, and its an argument applied at a blanket level as such.

The trouble is though, when muslims do show protest, its usually against something we cherish, or a cornerstone of Britain. In this case, freedom of speech. What muslims are calling for is that Islam should be treated like it is in an Arab theocracy. I should be able to criticise whatever or whoever I like. That isn't the same as incitement to hatred. What's next, I can't criticise Arsenal because it might incite Arsenal fans? The cartoons were offensive, but they were a valid criticism of Islam from the artists' point of view.

Muslims aren't trying to stop incitement to hatred, they want to stop all criticism of Islam or its components. I'll give you another example. There are some things that Mohammed got up to (documented), that people don't like to hear about, but I can't say because it would be incitement to hatred. Hmmm. And this is documented truth we are talking about.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

The problem is the media over here gives the impression that the islamic world is upset over a cartoon of mohammed with a bomb in his turban (not that mohammed would have worn a turban...)
This gives the impression that he islamic world are making a mountain out of a molehill, after all, how can such a cartoon like that be truly offensive?

**When in actuallity, Danish muslims have put together their own "dodgy dossier" and taken it to the middle east, which includes the published cartoons, but also includes some far more offensive images along with alot of other anti-islamic properganda.**

Think of the reaction like this:
A dossier of images mocking jesus is released, it contains pictures of jesus copulating with a goat, and also that well known image of the jesus action figure.
Christians get understandably offended at the obscene images included, not hugely offended by the action figure.
The media reports that the christians are offended by the action figure and don't mention the goat images.
Non-christians fail to understand what all the fuss is about.

**And there for the first time we see the point at which a giant misunderstanding has taken place.At this point enter us non muslims having been unaware up until now of the history of these cartoons and misunderstanding, think that the muslim world is protesting against free speech.**

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Punky, its not freedom of speech the muslims have been protesting against and I thought this has been pretty clear. Every single muslim Ive spoken to regarding this is infavour of freedom of speech. What we are saying is that with freedom of speech comes a responsibility not to offend. We are protesting against what we feel is a great insult to our prophet, a man we hold in the utmost regard. The fact that these cartoons were published on national media all over Europe added to the sentiments that this is seen as a blatant insult on the most important person to muslimns all over the world, mocking our religion. Its this irresponsibility and insult that most muslims I know are complaining out, not OUR right to freedom of speech.

Hmmm sounds like your all for freedom of speach but only when it suites you!

you say your for freedom of speech but only if its what you want to hear?

If someone says something that you do not agree with or offends you, they should still be allowed to say it! That is freedom of speach!

They may have a responsibility not to offend you or me but if you want something in this case freedom of speach then you have to take the bad with the good.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Punky, its not freedom of speech the muslims have been protesting against and I thought this has been pretty clear. Every single muslim Ive spoken to regarding this is infavour of freedom of speech. What we are saying is that with freedom of speech comes a responsibility not to offend. We are protesting against what we feel is a great insult to our prophet, a man we hold in the utmost regard. The fact that these cartoons were published on national media all over Europe added to the sentiments that this is seen as a blatant insult on the most important person to muslimns all over the world, mocking our religion. Its this irresponsibility and insult that most muslims I know are complaining out, not OUR right to freedom of speech.

You aren't answering my point, you just repeating the usual Muslim line.

If I am not allowed to criticise Mohammed because that counts as incitement to hatred, then what next? I can't criticise Arsenal because it might incite Arsenal fans? Can't criticise the government because it might incite Labour supporters? Can't criticise Martin Luther King because it might incite black people? Where's our freedom of speech then? If I was a Muslim I wouldn't be uttering "the official line", because its insulting against Muslims. It makes them seem like they are so incitable about anything to do with their religion. It does work both ways so Muslims are free to criticise who they like. This what forms a debate which is a cornerstone of western culture.

To you and other Muslims, Mohammed is a prophet and highly revered. You aren't allowed to criticise him. That's fine. I wholeheartedly support that. However, to non-Muslims, Mohammed is just a character in an ancient book, and they are free to criticism him should they choose to.

And when Muslims say "I am not against freedom of speech, but..." I generally feel like that are following the same rule as when people say "I'm not racist, but...".