Dutch to ban the wearing of the Burka?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by andyl

Agriculture too.

My point is that the people employting illegal immigrants are often drawn from the indigenous community, people who run employment agencies which are deliberately casual in their checking of identity and people who pay cash in hand (to avoid tax and Ni, something which on other threads seems to be applauded). Some very big UK companies are complicit in this, but hide behind the fact that they use agency staff for whom agencies are responsible.

So that "2.5bn that you mentioned legal immigrants put into the economy is possibly eclipsed or dwarfed by the damage illegals do to our economy......

Originally Posted by Ramrod

So that "2.5bn that you mentioned legal immigrants put into the economy is possibly eclipsed or dwarfed by the damage illegals do to our economy......

Who profits most from the black economy? An illegal immigrant or an employer. Naturally it is impossible to accurately gauge the impact of illegal working by people, illegally or legally entitled to work here, indigenous or immigrant.

Not sure why we're discussing illegal immigration mind you.

[basa]

Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢d like to try and put into some perspective my personal concerns about immigration in this country.

To my mind there are three main areas of concern.

• Terrorism

• Economy

• Society

I think it is generally agreed that most of the worlds terrorism these days is down to the various fundamentalist muslim groups. It is also a given that the majority of immigrants to the UK are of muslim persuasion. It is not rocket science to deduce that therefore a large number of immigrants could also be potential terrorists. Not good !

It is often stated that immigrants are vital to the UK and that they have a positive effect on the economy. A figure of £2.5bn is often quoted but this figure was carefully chosen by the Home Office in a period when public sector accounts were in surplus, plus they wrongly attributed Corporation Tax from residents abroad plus any effects of illegals and asylum seekers means this figure should probably read only £0.5bn - a drop in the ocean. It also does not take into consideration the effects on population. UK is overcrowded with 60m people and 250,000 immigrants per year (not including †˜illegalsâà ƒÆ’¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€ žÂ¢ of which 500,000 are admitted to be already here). We are already 12x more densely populated than USA and whilst it is true there is a greater percentage of immigrants in many European countries, on the whole they are far less densely grouped than in the UK. Donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t you think we have passed the UKââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s †˜optimum populationââ ¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ ? It is calculated that 80% of projected future population growth will be due to immigrants and their birth rate. The effects on the infrastructure are difficult to assess but the strain on housing, law enforcement, border controls, transport, education, health etc are beginning to show. Donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t forget that of those immigrants who do work (their unemployment rate is twice that of the indigenous people) many take low paid jobs that force out British people. We should be training our own people rather than importing workers.

Lastly the effects on society as a whole is a contentious issue. It would be fair to say that it would be nigh on impossible to integrate 250.000 immigrants every year even if they wished to integrate. Most now live in inner city ghettos equivalent to those of the USA cities, displacing native people and forming an under class with very different religions and cultural values to our own, creating social problems for all of us. The problems of crime, violence, racial and religious tension (of which the wearing of the burka is only one manifestation), competition for jobs and housing are not going away any time soon. Many think immigrants restrict individual freedoms and democratic processes and are concerned that continued immigration is destroying respect for and love of, the history and traditions of the UK and through ethnic replacement, which may be leading to native British people losing control over their own country. The net effect IMO is the erosion of the institutions and values we have created for ourselves and ironically are those values which make the UK attractive to outsiders.

I have to say there are grounds for doubting both the viability and the desirability of multiculturalism. The most obvious outcome is the violence of civil disorder. It is an experiment that has gone seriously wrong.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by andyl

Agriculture too.

Yeah, yeah. You say the immigrants you know whilst displaying an obvious contempt for them and spouting anecdotal evidence which appears more grounded in your own prejudices than in fact. You could, of course, look into the subject in a little more detail; gain some knowledge from the many resources that exist out there and which can be found with just a little help from Mr. Google.

I have no interest in searching with Mr Google, I prefer to stick to the facts that I experience first hand.

We can all go and find some dubious facts that support our claim from Mr Google, no matter what our views are.

Fact... The vast majority of foreign workers come here to make lots of cash to spend back in their homeland. They do not contribute as much to the UK economy as british workers.

The government is not interested in persuing illegal workers with false NI numbers, because they are paying tax and NI and would be an admission that the illegal immigration problem is far worse than they would have us believe.

You can only judge whats going on by speaking to these people, not by reading other peoples biased views.

[basa]

Originally Posted by homealone

- as usual wikepedia is the db's

You (and I) may think so .... but its founder has doubts

Originally Posted by basa

Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢d like to try and put into some perspective my personal concerns about immigration in this country. (SNIP)
.

The majority of immigrants are "of the Muslim persusasion"? Do you have a stat for that? Most immigration to this country is from within the EU so I'm a litle dubious of that assertion.

Multiculturalism has failed? Well in that racism is prevalent and increasing, I guess so.

Terrorism? C'mon. You block Muslims from entering the country on the basis of the actions of a tiny, tiny minority of people who follow that faith?

Hardly surprising we are less densely populated than the US. The issue in the UK is almost exclusively in London and the SE and that is down to economic and planning policy.
Many believe immigrants restrict individual freedoms and democratic processes. Whilst they may believe that (see my point about the prevalence of racism) can you provide any evidence to suggest this is the case?
__________________

Originally Posted by Escapee

I have no interest in searching with Mr Google, I prefer to stick to the facts that I experience first hand.

We can all go and find some dubious facts that support our claim from Mr Google, no matter what our views are.

We can find evidence, backed by research, which confirms, denies or challenges our opinions. You have made your mind up and no amount of hard evidence is going the change that. Always good to encounter an open mind

Fact... The vast majority of foreign workers come here to make lots of cash to spend back in their homeland. They do not contribute as much to the UK economy as british workers.

No it's not a fact, it's your opinion.

The government is not interested in persuing illegal workers with false NI numbers, because they are paying tax and NI and would be an admission that the illegal immigration problem is far worse than they would have us believe.

Again, fact or opinion?

You can only judge whats going on by speaking to these people, not by reading other peoples biased views.

Well I'm assuming these people are no longer here given your opinion of immigrants, especially illegal ones, I presume you've reported them, no doubt accompanied by a girlfriend , to the authorities.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Escapee

You can only judge whats going on by speaking to these people, not by reading other peoples biased views.

Shoot... I'm more than happy to contribute to your somewhat unrepresentative sample.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by andyl

We can find evidence, backed by research, which confirms, denies or challenges our opinions. You have made your mind up and no amount of hard evidence is going the change that. Always good to encounter an open mind

No it's not a fact, it's your opinion.

Again, fact or opinion?

Well I'm assuming these people are no longer here given your opinion of immigrants, especially illegal ones, I presume you've reported them, no doubt accompanied by a girlfriend , to the authorities.

My current girlfriend (for the past 18 months) is a filipino, she has spent 3 years legally in this country and spent around 3 years in Saudi before that. There is a very strong community of filipinos in Cardiff, with the majority (around 3000 I think) working for the health authority. I have met a lot of them at various parties I have been invited to, and they are a very close community.

They tend to be very keen on making a pound if they can, I think this is genarally due to coming from a background where there is a fair amount of poverty. They tend to take on a venture that will make a pound, where we wouldn't bother for such a small amount. If you need telephone cards Mr X buys them in bulk, Rice is bought in bulk by Mr Y and Booze is supplied by Mr Z. Thats how their community works.

They all seem to live in similar circumstances, my girlfriend shares a 3 bedroom house with 3 other filipino women with one downstairs room converted into the fourth bedroom. (an example of less contribution to the economy) They are all very similar in their goals, ie: to work as many hours as they can to send money back home and purchase property and businesses.

In the past 6 years my girlfriend has worked in foreign countries and bought numerous properties back home, in the last 18 months she has done the following.

*Started a taxi company with Tuk Tuks in Manila.

*Started a company distributing Coffee and Herbal Teas in Manila.

*Bought a piece of land in front of the government department in Manila where driving licences are issued to open a drug testing centre.

*Bought 20 acres of land, installed irrigation pumps and is currently growing vines.

*Bought a plot of land with 2 derelict bungalows.

*Bought a house overlooking the bay in Manila.

The 4 of them share a house and work as many hours as they can manage to basically become property magnates in their own country, this is the general trend amongst all her associates that I have met attending many parties and BBQ's with them. (PS: They eat rice at BBQ's)

The illegal immigrant that I reported has to my knowledge not been found, she like most of them uses many different names and moves around a lot after coming over here on a fake South African passport.
After making many enqiries about her and her friends, by some very underhanded methods I was able to learn a lot more about illegal Zimbabweans in this country, I have even seen an illegal passport and some other illegal South African and Zimbabwean documentation.

I believe my small experience is the tip of a very large iceberg.

[basa]

Originally Posted by andyl

The majority of immigrants are "of the Muslim persusasion"? Do you have a stat for that? Most immigration to this country is from within the EU so I'm a litle dubious of that assertion.

2003 stats indicate 71% of immigrants granted settlement originated from Asia or Africa ( source: Economic & Social Research Council). Countries whose populations are 90% to 100% Muslim include Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Somalia, Syria, Tajikistan, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen (source: Middle East Policy Council). Note that most of these are Asia, Arab and African countries (plus some East European for good measure).

Originally Posted by andyl

Terrorism? C'mon. You block Muslims from entering the country on the basis of the actions of a tiny, tiny minority of people who follow that faith?

Probably unreasonable to most PC people, but still we are importing the enemy amongst us.

Originally Posted by andyl

Many believe immigrants restrict individual freedoms and democratic processes. Whilst they may believe that (see my point about the prevalence of racism) can you provide any evidence to suggest this is the case?

How about the Prevention of Terrorism Act, stop & search, ID cards, 90 day detainment without arrest. IMO all come about with increase in terrorism and immigrant presence.

Originally Posted by basa

2003 stats indicate 71% of immigrants granted settlement originated from Asia or Africa ( source: Economic & Social Research Council). Countries whose populations are 90% to 100% Muslim include Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Somalia, Syria, Tajikistan, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen (source: Middle East Policy Council). Note that most of these are Asia, Arab and African countries (plus some East European for good measure).

Do you have a link for the ESRC data please? Some food for thought in the meantime:

"For the past five years we have had 150,000 or so more people immigrating EACH YEAR than emigrating. What Migration Watch doesn't tell you is that this migration has been cyclical and that during much of the postwar period we lost population. Where were they then, lamenting that we were losing a city the size of Birmingham every five years?

But who are these people? The stats used by Michael Howard in support of his "I Believe" conceal some interesting subtleties. Take 2003. In that year 362,000 people left and 513,000 came in - a difference of 151,000. Of those departing, 191,000 were Brits and 171,000 were foreigners. And of those coming in, 277,000 were British returnees and 246,000 were Auslanders . Bear with me. That means that 88,000 more Brits came in than went out and 75,000 more outsiders. Sooo... more than half of that city the size of Birmingham is made up of excess returning Britons.

But the other half is not all knife-wielding Kurds, pimping Albanians and benefit-defrauding West Africans. Of 2003's foreign workers in the UK, 519,000 were from EU states, 127,000 from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, 87,000 were Aussies and Kiwis, 72,000 were Americans, and 500,000 were from other countries, most notably the Philippines, Japan and South Africa.

Still with me? Because this is where it gets interesting. When Michael Howard says that the problem is not ethnicity but numbers - and given that asylum seekers will now make up only about a quarter of the net inflow - the implication is that he will crack down significantly on all these EU, US, Australian and Filipino wannaworks...." http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1397647,00.html

And that Brum suggestion has also been shown to be highly misleading here: http://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/quote.jsp?id=165

And the dangers of such a blurring of the lines regarding immigration (which so often hides a racial agenda, though not terribly well).

"I feel the shadows closing in. In Sittingbourne on Friday night, 2,000 residents, interlaced with members of the BNP, turned up at a meeting called by the council to discuss the establishment of short-term accommodation for asylum-seekers undergoing induction. Many accused asylum-seekers of high levels of criminality, of wanting to poison the water supply, of depriving British people of health facilities, of sexually harassing indigenous women and of terrorism. What is one to do with such unreason? " This is of course, from an opinion piece so not fact as such!
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comme...882497,00.html

Probably unreasonable to most PC people, but still we are importing the enemy amongst us.

Ah, if in doubt, throw out the PC line

How about the Prevention of Terrorism Act, stop & search, ID cards, 90 day detainment without arrest. IMO all come about with increase in terrorism and immigrant presence.

That the Govt are acting like loons is not the fault of immigrants.

[basa]

Originally Posted by andyl

Do you have a link for the ESRC data please?

http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ES...ts/index1.aspx

Originally Posted by andyl

Some food for thought in the meantime:

<snip>

Well we could throw stats and figures around all day, but can you deny there are a great many immigrants entering UK daily and most are muslim.

Originally Posted by andyl

Ah, if in doubt, throw out the PC line

Fact: terrorists and illegals are entering the UK.
Fact: there are those amongst us who will protect the rights of the wrongdoing minority, in the name of correctness, at the expense of the law abiding majority.

Originally Posted by andyl

That the Govt are acting like loons is not the fault of immigrants.

I take it then you perceive no threat ?

Can I ask you - Do you welcome unregulated immigration, immigration with strict regulation, deportation of failed assylum seekers, deportation of illegal immigrants.

How do you feel about the rights of all / any EU resident (think what that extends to now and in the future) to arrive in the UK, to work or not and enjoy the same benefits as native Britons.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by andyl

Still with me? Because this is where it gets interesting. When Michael Howard says that the problem is not ethnicity but numbers - and given that asylum seekers will now make up only about a quarter of the net inflow - the implication is that he will crack down significantly on all these EU, US, Australian and Filipino wannaworks.

sexually harassing indigenous women and of terrorism. What is one to do with such unreason? "[/I] This is of course, from an opinion piece so not fact as such!
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comme...882497,00.html

Perhaps you could explain your meaning of "Wannaworks" are you talking about people who come to this country with a job already obtained, or ones who arrive here with no job. You will find that people such as the filipinos who have to take conversion courses in their own country before they are allowed to work on the UK health service, are very annoyed about immigrants turning up here and not being expected to follow the procedures like they did.


"Sexually harassing indigenous women" Yes I have seen it, so has many other people. Just go into a city centre bar like "Life" "Walkabout" "Kiwis" "Lava Lounge" etc in Cardiff and look at those Kurds who dont wash mauling and groping women. I have had many women come upto me and chat because they are trying to get away from the perverted passport seeking creeps.

Oh and when the womans boyfriend takes exception and lays one on them its called a racist attack.

Originally Posted by basa

http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ES...ts/index1.aspx

Thanks - interesting source which also shows the highest recorded outflow of migrants from the UK to the EU; the highest level of immigration and emigration for a decade (global movement gaining pace?) and net migration at just 150,000; that 28% of employers seeking to employ migrants, with the number rising to 40% for organisations employing over 500 people; Iraq, Zimbabwe and Afghanistan toping the asylum application list (can you spot any connection there?); only 13,000 people were granted asylum in 2003.

Yes, most migrant recruiters are in London; as I said before this is a conseqnence of economic not immigration policy.

Well we could throw stats and figures around all day,

We could.... but I'm grateful for the fact that your are supporting your opinion with some evidence. I don't agree with your analysis mind I don't mean to sound patronising saying that and hope you don't take it that way; I'm just tired of people submitting empty posts that simply reveal their prejudices rather than their knowledge

but can you deny there are a great many immigrants entering UK daily and most are muslim.

Well yes because net immigration levels are not excessively high and, as Aaronovitch pointed out, migration is cyclical

Fact: terrorists and illegals are entering the UK.

In response - an opinion; in suggesting we shou;d keep out all Muslims and bar expression of the faith, we are over-reacting.

Fact: there are those amongst us who will protect the rights of the wrongdoing minority, in the name of correctness, at the expense of the law abiding majority.

No, that's an opinion, not fact. An opinion not borne out by reality I might add (in my opinion!)

I take it then you perceive no threat ?

More concerned about getting run over by a lunatic driver frankly; it's called risk assessment

Can I ask you - Do you welcome unregulated immigration, immigration with strict regulation, deportation of failed assylum seekers, deportation of illegal immigrants.

Who said anything about unregulated immigration? All I seek is a fair system which takes into account the real risk of persecution which people may face (in places like Congo, Zimbabwe etc to where we are currently repatriating with seemingly gay abandon) and does not discriminate according to race.

How do you feel about the rights of all / any EU resident (think what that extends to now and in the future) to arrive in the UK, to work or not and enjoy the same benefits as native Britons.

Well we are free to do the same across Europe. Do you think the word 'union' implies anything like, I don't know, unity?

[me283]

Originally Posted by andyl

Think I'll stick with the Census rather than some dodgy looking right wing organisation if that's OK with you. Four (2005 minus 2001 = 4! ) years in terms of the Census is not out of date.

Yep, that's best... stick with something less up-to-date, that happens to support your views more strongly...
__________________

Originally Posted by andyl

Democracy is a somewhat more complicated than that.

Not really. A motion is proposed, it is voted on, and either passed or not. Hardly complicated.

Originally Posted by Escapee

Perhaps you could explain your meaning of "Wannaworks"

I didn't say it.

... are you talking about people who come to this country with a job already obtained, or ones who arrive here with no job. You will find that people such as the filipinos who have to take conversion courses in their own country before they are allowed to work on the UK health service, are very annoyed about immigrants turning up here and not being expected to follow the procedures like they did.

See above; fair and just system

"Sexually harassing indigenous women" Yes I have seen it, so has many other people.

So born and bred Brits don't sexually harass each other?

Just go into a city centre bar like "Life" "Walkabout" "Kiwis" "Lava Lounge" etc in Cardiff

Blooming Australians coming over here, importing their culture and undermining our Great British Way Of Life

and look at those Kurds who dont wash mauling and groping women.

Don't wash? - no entry restrictions in these establishments then? Go to any town or city centre pub and you'll see drunk, leery, lairy blokes harassing and/or fighting. Hardly exclusive to Kurds is it? Perhaps they're just trying to adopt the Great British Way of Life

I have had many women come upto me and chat because they are trying to get away from the perverted passport seeking creeps.

Every cloud eh.

Oh and when the womans boyfriend takes exception and lays one on them its called a racist attack.

Surely you're not advocating or supporting the use of violence which is, of course, illegal and therefore you would be in breach of CF's T&Cs.
__________________

Originally Posted by me283

Yep, that's best... stick with something less up-to-date, that happens to support your views more strongly...

No I'll stick to stats which are presented without a political agenda and are drawn from a survey of the entire nation
__________________

Not really. A motion is proposed, it is voted on, and either passed or not. Hardly complicated.

An extraordinary example of political illiteracy.