My foot slipped - Page 3

Chimaera · 17-06-2005, 23:13

He's still killed someone and seriously injured another though, whatever the motive/reasons behind it

Raistlin · 17-06-2005, 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chimaera

He's still killed someone and seriously injured another though, whatever the motive/reasons behind it

I'm not denying that, and I'm not defending what he did, we got to this point in the discussion by talking about the sentance he may/may not receive.

I was trying to ilustrate that it is unlikely to be as severe a sentance as you would get for murder/manslaughter because there was no real intent - any more than there is any intent to kill in any road accident.

The fact that he was an unsupervised learner will certainly count against him, but he will not receive a sentance anywhere near that of a convicted murderer.

Personally I would be suprised if he gets anything more than a couple of years, and that's if he gets a custodial sentance at all.....

bdav · 17-06-2005, 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raistlin

But Roy wasn't suggesting that he had dropped the gun. He was suggesting that "he fired the gun but did not think the bullet would hit anyone".

My analogy is built on that.

I drive my car, but I don't expect to hit anyone. I do realise that it is a risk. If I point my car at a crowd of people and then drive it I am likely to hit someone.

The difference comes down to intent. If I point a gun into the air it is (highly) unlikely that I will hit anybody, however if I point my gun into a crowd it is (highly) likely that I will hit someone.

In Roy's example, if I were to say "sorry, I didn't think it would hit anybody" after deliberatly driving/aiming towards a crowd of people then I would obviously be talking crap.

However (dragging this back on topic) the learner driver was parking his car, he did not expect to hit someone, he was not parking it intentionally to hit someone, therefore it isn't pre-meditated. The only pre-meditated acts were: driving the car not in accordance with the licencing conditions, driving whilst uninsured.

He is certainly not going to be found guilty of pre-meditated murder.

If its being expressed this way - he aimed the gun at the people - didn't intend to pull the trigger. Doesn't matter anyway - in my view, he should be locked for life (thats life, not 45 years or whatever it may be), because he took a risk when he went out without a license, and must live by the consequences.

Ramrod · 17-06-2005, 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kliro

The death is a tradgedy, but if this man truly has mental health problems, then he can't really be blamed can he?

Anxiety and sleeping problems?! I could go to the GP and say that I was anxious and had problems sleeping! I will only accept major mental illnesses in this case........and if he has one of those (and it led him to kill) then all I can say is 'they shoot horses don't they?'

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Raistlin

However (dragging this back on topic) the learner driver was parking his car, he did not expect to hit someone, he was not parking it intentionally to hit someone, therefore it isn't pre-meditated. The only pre-meditated acts were: driving the car not in accordance with the licencing conditions, driving whilst uninsured.

He is certainly not going to be found guilty of pre-meditated murder.

However, he should be found guilty of manslaughter and given the max sentence because he was driving a car that was pointed at a beach full of people and he really had no idea how to drive it. If he was put in front of me right now I would have no hesitation in maiming him........

Roy MM · 17-06-2005, 23:29

Isn't declaring a mental heath problem a priviso on obtaining a provisional licence these days?
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Quote:

A learner driver whose car sped over a sea wall,

Hardly pointing his car at a beach full of people.

Raistlin · 17-06-2005, 23:34

He didn't have mental health problems when the accident occured. He has been treated for them since the accident.

Although, some might argue that driving unsupervised, whilst not having a full licence, after having previously had an accident already, and having been warned by the driving instructor that you needed another 60 hours of lessons..........

Roy MM · 17-06-2005, 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raistlin

He didn't have mental health problems when the accident occured. He has been treated for them since the accident.

Even after my 40+ years driving it would effect me if i killed someone by accident, think i would be popping pills.

Ramrod · 17-06-2005, 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy MM

Hardly pointing his car at a beach full of people.

Erm........yes it is...........he was in a car, it was pointed at a beach, the beach had people on it, and he pressed the accelerator......

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy MM

Even after my 40+ years driving it would effect me if i killed someone by accident, think i would be popping pills.

Thats right....after the event.............

Roy MM · 17-06-2005, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Erm........yes it is...........he was in a car, it was pointed at a beach, the beach had people on it, and he pressed the accelerator......

Over a beach wall, he could not see what was over/behind it.

Ramrod · 17-06-2005, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy MM

Over a beach wall, he could not see what was over/behind it.

A car wouldn't go through a beach wall......he was obviously parked above a beach and he drove over the edge onto the sand..........
edit.........see pic..........

bdav · 17-06-2005, 23:54

Whats a learner driver doing in such a powerful car? Its a BMW 7 series which (i believe) has a min. of a 2.5L engine - A lot of car to be throwing around as a learner.

Roy MM · 17-06-2005, 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

A car wouldn't go through a beach wall......he was obviously parked above a beach and he drove over the edge onto the sand..........
edit.........see pic..........

That shows where the car ended up, not the scenario of the full events, not condoning it just trying to get it into perspective.

Ramrod · 19-06-2005, 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy MM

That shows where the car ended up, not the scenario of the full events, not condoning it just trying to get it into perspective.

It couldn't have ended up on the beach if it had to drive through a beach wall...........he must have just driven off a sea defence wall.........

Graham · 19-06-2005, 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy MM

Over a beach wall, he could not see what was over/behind it.

A car wouldn't go through a beach wall......he was obviously parked above a beach and he drove over the edge onto the sand..........

Being down here in Portsmouth I've heard a bit more of this story and IIRC the situation was that it was a car park *on top* of the beach wall and when the car moved forward it went over the edge and down onto the beach.

**Maggy** · 19-06-2005, 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Being down here in Portsmouth I've heard a bit more of this story and IIRC the situation was that it was a car park *on top* of the beach wall and when the car moved forward it went over the edge and down onto the beach.

I've not heard much about this story Graham.Did anyone at anytime mention how long this bloke had been a learner driver?Weeks,months,years possibly?And had he ever attempted a driving test?