NTL promoting copyright infringement

[Shaun]

Originally posted by Lord Nikon
Let me see...

1) People complain NTL should reinvest some capital into service improvements. These people complain about service levels online, outdated equipt, why don't they offer 2mbit etc the explanation for this is lack of capital as they are emerging from chapt 11.

2) same people complain about prices

3) NTL run an article in the press about what people have done on the net. This article includes mention of activities people have used which have been illegal.

4) the same users complain about the ad, and report NTL to the ASA and FACT

lets continue with some speculation now.

5) ASA and FACT prosecute NTL and levy a large fine

6) NTL can no longer afford to upgrade

7) NTL have to put prices up to cover the costs of the fines.

8) NTL's services deteriorate further

9) the people from 1,2 and 3 have more reason to complain.




Alternative assuming no-one had reported them


4) possibly the ASA spot the ad. warn NTL and NTL no longer run it.

5) NTL get more subscribers from the ad anyway
6) increased revenue means upgrades take place
7) the people in 1,2,3 get what they asked for and everyone is happy.

You still haven't come up with a credible argument, Ntl HAVE done wrong, they need to learn that this sort of advertisement is not acceptable.

Just because we want things to get better with Ntl doesn't mean we should just look the other way when they do wrong.

STILL you haven't come up with an alternative solution to the problem.

Reporting Ntl to the ASA is the right thing to do, and is our right as a customer. This sort of advert is NOT acceptable and Ntl MUST learn this.

Originally posted by dellwear
You still haven't come up with a credible argument, Ntl HAVE done wrong, they need to learn that this sort of advertisement is not acceptable.

Just because we want things to get better with Ntl doesn't mean we should just look the other way when they do wrong.

STILL you haven't come up with an alternative solution to the problem.

Reporting Ntl to the ASA is the right thing to do, and is our right as a customer. This sort of advert is NOT acceptable and Ntl MUST learn this.

c'mon dellwear get of the bloody bandwagon.

Highlight on the actuall article where it say NTL insist you use your connection illegaly.

Just because we hate NTL doesnt mean we have to stir up trouble for them either.

Lord Nikon has posted very simply what I have stated form my first post.
That is simple, it is easy to understand and it requires no reading between lines to come out with a verdict at the end of it.


We all know somewhere theres a crime happening, why dont we all phone the police and report that theres a crime happening "somewhere". Morally yes you do have a point, you think its worng you did something about it. Would I be morally right to bring about a prosecution against S.W because he broke the law in uncapping his modem, it was illegal after all. No I have used my better judgement in the matter (as I need say, did NTL) and quite frankly I couldnt give a toss if he achieved 33Mbit on his connection......good luck to him.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Morally yes you do have a point, you think its worng you did something about it.

Hang on, I have no where said that I have reported Ntl to the ASA (because I haven't) But what I have said is that I believe that reporting them is the right thing to do because they have done wrong.

You even admit that so why shouldn't they be reported, they aren't gong to listen to a few customers "moaning" on about it, they will listen to the ASA. Ntl do have to learn that this sort of advertising is wrong, morally and ethically, yes it happens but they shouldn't be trying to make money out of it.

Before you post you need to make sure you are aware of all the facts, because thats how wars start.

Originally posted by dellwear
Hang on, I have no where said that I have reported Ntl to the ASA (because I haven't) But what I have said is that I believe that reporting them is the right thing to do because they have done wrong.

You even admit that so why shouldn't they be reported, they aren't gong to listen to a few customers "moaning" on about it, they will listen to the ASA. Ntl do have to learn that this sort of advertising is wrong, morally and ethically, yes it happens but they shouldn't be trying to make money out of it.

Before you post you need to make sure you are aware of all the facts, because thats how wars start.

Accepted I used 'You' instead of 'they'. apologies.


P.S I still dont condone you or think you are right

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
...NTL do not PROMOTE downloading of illegal movies from filesharing, it does not state where to get them from, or how to get them. It merely states that "movies" are available on the internet.
The fcat that Spiderman was such a success in the piracy stakes is FACT not a promotion by NTL...

So why do you think the bit about Spiderman being available on the internet was put in the ad? Surely it is only there to let people know that downloading of current cinema releases are available somewhere on the internet.
O.K. it doesn't actually tell you how or where to get them specifically, but some naive readers of that ad might not even have realised that downloading current movies was possible.
Thanks to ntl, they do now.

I can't see any reason at all why ntl included the piece about Spiderman (complete with picture), other than to promote piracy.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Accepted I used 'You' instead of 'they'. apologies.

Thank you for that, respect, is not somthing you see much on some of these forums!

[Lord Nikon]

Possibly the same reason a news item appeared a while back naming kazaa / morpheus / grokster / xolox / bittorrent / irc as places people traded MP3s / movies / software...


Because it is NEWS

Originally posted by dellwear
Thank you for that, respect, is not somthing you see much on some of these forums!

A little courtesy never hurt anyone........now lets fight lol

[Shaun]

Originally posted by Lord Nikon
Possibly the same reason a news item appeared a while back naming kazaa / morpheus / grokster / xolox / bittorrent / irc as places people traded MP3s / movies / software...


Because it is NEWS

But this is an advert, to get people to buy their product on the merrit of whats in said advert

[Lord Nikon]

Lets look at this from a logical, and geographic point of view.


Spiderman we shall use as a specific example.

The movie was released and ripped in the US.
The movie was placed on p2p after it had been shared on IRC

NTL is a UK based ISP, therefore it wasn't NTL that ripped, shared or hosted the film. (from the perspective we are talking about NTL UK operations)

The ad was run in the UK

NTL didn't state how or where it was possible to download films

They didn't report ANYTHING that wasn't already public knowlege from countless other news articles.

The only thing I can see that they did wrong was fail to provide a disclaimer along the lines of "While this is what some people use the net for, we cannot condone or support the usage of Broadband services for any form of copyright theft or illegal activities."

[Russ]

Originally posted by Lord Nikon
The only thing I can see that they did wrong was fail to provide a disclaimer along the lines of "While this is what some people use the net for, we cannot condone or support the usage of Broadband services for any form of copyright theft or illegal activities."

So why didn't they?

[Lord Nikon]

Originally posted by Russ D
So why didn't they?

Hindsight is 100% more accurate than foresight.

What looks like an effective slogan to some, is tantamount to an incitement to slander to others.

Coca Cola had a problem with an advertising point

"Coke Gives you life" was translated into chinese as "coke brings your ancestors back from the grave"

Vauxhall Novas had to be renamed as "No Va" in spanish means "Won't Go"

It can be hard to see the impact of an advertisement you have worked on, as you can be too close to the subject material to spot the obvious.


Since it is a weekly news paper, we have yet to see if NTL place comments in the next edition apologising for the ad and explaining the context of the quote.

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Highlight on the actuall article where it say NTL insist you use your connection illegaly.

This has been round in so many circles I'm getting dizzy.



The CONTEXT of this item is what makes it damaging. It is an advertisement for ntl's services, and therefore everything contained in it can reasonably be understood to be supporting the general proposition that Ntl's broadband service is excellent and worth subscribing to. That is what an advertisement is.

In the main subheading they say, as I have highlighted, 'have we got an internet service for you!' Then they tell you how great it is. In the sidebar they say, 'Don't just take our word for it'. Take our word for what? That you can do illegal stuff with the internet? Clearly not. They are saying, 'We're brilliant - but in case you don't believe us, here's some third-party endorsement. Spiderman was out on the net before it was in your local Odeon!

It is absolutely crystal clear from the context of this statement that they intend the availability of Spiderman to be a understood as a good thing. They don't have to insist you break the law; to break the ASA code they merely have to 'incite' you.

Timewarrior, you need to look further than the end of your nose to understand this. Just because someone doesn't use the precise words, 'illegal downloads are great' doesn't mean that they are not suggesting that might be the case. And it is not a matter of chasing shadows or reading between the lines; it is a deliberately planned inference taargeted at gullible customers by a professional advertiser who should have known better.

It is not 'grassing' to report NTL for this. 'grassing' is a word used by criminals and schoolboys to try to intimidate others into not doing the right thing. Like it or not, there is a rule of Law in this country and there are people and organisations charged with upholding it. With the greatest of respect to all of you who oppose what I have done by reporting this to the ASA, but you do not have the right to decide whether NTL should get away with this. All I have done is report them to those who do have that right, and from now on the properly appointed people will make the decisions.

It is not shooting myself in the foot because I believe that in the long run if NTL are forced to confront their shoddy practices they will change, and this will be for the better.

Lord Nikon, in your two suggested scenarios, what is the logic behind your suggestion that if ntl are reported for this, they get a big fine, but if the ASA spot it themselves, they get off with a warning? I don't see any difference in the severity of the breach of the Advertising Standards code just because they are caught by the 'police' instead of a member of the public.

As a footnote, I did not join this forum to snipe at ntl at all possible opportunities and I am not on an anti-cap crusade (although I disagree with the cap). I have no agenda to 'get' ntl. However I think they have made a huge cock-up on this occasion and I have taken the appropriate, correct, legally allowed for action as a result.

[downquark1]

Towny once again you are the you are the light of reason in the fog of confusion.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by Andre
They're too busy trying to log into this site using my name and guessing my password....

Yes ntl-we have the logs.

Someone from ntl tried to log in here as me-wonder what they'll have to say about that?

ntl

When was this Andre?

I know they are paranoid about this site, but this is going too far.

Good job you have a good password!