School stands up for discipline and rules

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Electrolyte

He wouldn't use a pair from lost property (or what ever it is called) as he stated he had medical problems with his feet.

he's got academic problems with them as well

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Chris T

The problem with that is, it assumes that the boy had no prior record of disobeying rules. How do you know he wasn't on a final warning of some kind? The article doesn't say one way or the other.

I think it is reasonable to assume that he wasn't when it does not mention he was. The article also does not state that the teacher that excluded him was in a particularly bad mood that morning/had marriage problems, so we're not assuming that plays a role either.

[Chimaera]

Yes - it would be interesting to see the full details from both sides of the story but the details will probably never be made public. Not easy to make a proper judgement without that information - although from my experience schools round here are very hot on uniform rules, especially footwear - and they issue letters before exams to ensure correct uniform is worn at all times.

Originally Posted by danielf

I think it is reasonable to assume that he wasn't when it does not mention he was. The article also does not state that the teacher that excluded him was in a particularly bad mood that morning/had marriage problems, so we're not assuming that plays a role either.

Actually I don't think that's a reasonable assumption at all. The story was clearly based on an interview with the boy and a terse, reluctant statement from the school. The school didn't want to discuss discipline and the boy can't be expected to volunteer if he's got previous.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Chris T

The problem with that is, it assumes that the boy had no prior record of disobeying rules. How do you know he wasn't on a final warning of some kind? The article doesn't say one way or the other.

No, so what's the point in making assumptions? The fact is, a teacher would not let a boy sit an exam unless he changed his shoes. So what if he had been warned before? There are ways of dealing with this, and jeopardising a childs education IS NOT the way to do it.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Actually I don't think that's a reasonable assumption at all. The story was clearly based on an interview with the boy and a terse, reluctant statement from the school. The school didn't want to discuss discipline and the boy can't be expected to volunteer if he's got previous.

That's fair enough, but everything becomes mere speculation then. We can only sensibly discuss what we have to go on imo. Having said that, we could do with a new angle on this, because we seem to be going round in ever smaller circles

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by danielf

That's fair enough, but everything becomes mere speculation than. We can only sensibly discuss what we have to go on imo. Having said that, we could do with a new angle on this, because we seem to be going round in ever smaller circles

what we have is a teacher who decided that a boys school shoes were not appropriate to sit an exam in.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by orangebird

what we have is a teacher who decided that a boys school shoes were not appropriate to sit an exam in.

The more you say it, the sillier it sounds

[nffc]

Originally Posted by Graham

To quote Inigo Montoya:

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means..."

Whoooosh.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by andyl

This is a bit off topic

6. Graham has a well thumbed copy of the Dictionary of Quotations which he puts to effective use

Actually, no I don't (although I've thought about buying it on more than one occasion, just never got around to it) it's just like the quizzes, I happen to know a whole bunch of stuff and that includes quotes (although I do tend to google to check sources/ original quoters).

(although if we knew who Inigo whatsisname actually was that use would be even more effective!)

Have you *never* seen The Princess Bride??? If you haven't, go to your nearest video/ DVD supplier and get a copy because you've missed a real treat!

"My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die!"

7. To mutual consternation Orangebird and I have found ourselves agreeing with each other

It's interesting to note the differences in the usual positions in this thread

8. This thread is seemingly dead. It has ceased to be, intellectually speaking.

Not Pythonically speaking?
__________________

Originally Posted by nffc

Whoooosh.

Right sound, wrong head...!
__________________

Originally Posted by Pierre

Not at all,it was just an aside that I found amusing.

You were quite happy to deride the poster as a Daily Mail reader (the proposed chain of events he posted was not a quote from the Daily Mail)

I never said they *were* from the Daily mail. I *compared* his comments to the sort of ones that come from the Daily Mail. There's a noticable difference.

for logging a possible but not a totally likely, or proven, chain of events that might happen if we don't enforce rules onto children.

And in the same post was quite happy to take on board and equally unproven and equally improbable chain of events that might happen by disciplining the child as your counter argument.

There is certainly no more evidence in the quote you posted to prove that excluded children all go on to be criminals than there was in the other post to prove that society would crumble.

Except that what I quoted was not "equally improbable" and that quote was just one from a whole *raft* of cites and examples from those links I posted several of which *do* demonstrate that children who are excluded from schools are more likely to become criminals.

OK so you think we should relax the exam rules..But which ones.By sticking to the rules on correct attire we then can keep the students minds on other appropriate behaviour in the exam room/hall.To not turn round,to not look at other candidates,to not talk to other candidates,not pass notes,to put your hand up to attract attention from invigilation staff,to not just walk out of the exam room,to not cheat in any manner.

An external exam is a very serious formal occasion.The rules are there for a very good reason-to maintain the integrity of external exams.Staff can be prosecuted for not upholding this integrity.Many staff who have redone or completely redone a students work or who have added to a students work have been prosecuted.

We have a duty to all the students in an exam not just to those who are late,who are not dressed correctly.If there is a question that we have not maintained the integrity of an exam it may call into question whether the exam results will stand.

So we treat these final exams with the solemnity they deserve.They are exams that have a legal and official standing in society-is it too much to expect that the candidates observe a few basic rules of dress?

Originally Posted by Incognitas

OK so you think we should relax the exam rules..But which ones.By sticking to the rules on correct attire we then can keep the students minds on other appropriate behaviour in the exam room/hall.To not turn round,to not look at other candidates,to not talk to other candidates,not pass notes,to put your hand up to attract attention from invigilation staff,to not just walk out of the exam room,to not cheat in any manner.

An external exam is a very serious formal occasion.The rules are there for a very good reason-to maintain the integrity of external exams.Staff can be prosecuted for not upholding this integrity.Many staff who have redone or completely redone a students work or who have added to a students work have been prosecuted.

We have a duty to all the students in an exam not just to those who are late,who are not dressed correctly.If there is a question that we have not maintained the integrity of an exam it may call into question whether the exam results will stand.

So we treat these final exams with the solemnity they deserve.They are exams that have a legal and official standing in society-is it too much to expect that the candidates observe a few basic rules of dress?

Coggy, I think you are extrapolating too far in suggesting that to have let this lad wear trainers it undermines other, more practical imperatives such as rules that prevent cheating etc. Quite how those trainers coukd undermine the integrity of an exam is beyond me - if they were flourescent pink then maybe, but they more or less resemble normal black shoes.

Originally Posted by andyl

Coggy, I think you are extrapolating too far in suggesting that to have let this lad wear trainers it undermines other, more practical imperatives such as rules that prevent cheating etc. Quite how those trainers coukd undermine the integrity of an exam is beyond me - if they were flourescent pink then maybe, but they more or less resemble normal black shoes.

Why don't you just accept the word of a teacher who regularly invigilates in external exams? There is a very good reason to maintain DISCIPLINE in an exam.MORE THAN AT ANY OTHER TIME IN A STUDENT'S CAREER.Sheesh! I can't see how much more I can explain it.

If you want it changed then get into the exam boards about it.I reckon they'd laugh you out of their offices.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

OK so you think we should relax the exam rules..But which ones.By sticking to the rules on correct attire we then can keep the students minds on other appropriate behaviour in the exam room/hall.To not turn round,to not look at other candidates,to not talk to other candidates,not pass notes,to put your hand up to attract attention from invigilation staff,to not just walk out of the exam room,to not cheat in any manner.

An external exam is a very serious formal occasion.The rules are there for a very good reason-to maintain the integrity of external exams.Staff can be prosecuted for not upholding this integrity.Many staff who have redone or completely redone a students work or who have added to a students work have been prosecuted.

We have a duty to all the students in an exam not just to those who are late,who are not dressed correctly.If there is a question that we have not maintained the integrity of an exam it may call into question whether the exam results will stand.

So we treat these final exams with the solemnity they deserve.They are exams that have a legal and official standing in society-is it too much to expect that the candidates observe a few basic rules of dress?

No, it's not too much to expect. But, as they're so basic, was it not too much to ask that the boy be able to sit his exams in his outrageous black trainers with a firm warning that he would not be able to wear them again in the exams? Given that black trainers do not encourage other candidates to turn round, to look at other candidates,to talk to other candidates, pass notes,to put your hand up to attract attention from invigilation staff,to just walk out of the exam room,to cheat in any manner, I really think the teacher involved could've shown a little discretion.
Do you really think that ay other candidate would've given enough of a monkies behind what he was wearing on his feet to disturb their own exam sitting?

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Why don't you just accept the word of a teacher who regularly invigilates in external exams? There is a very good reason to maintain DISCIPLINE in an exam.MORE THAN AT ANY OTHER TIME IN A STUDENT'S CAREER.Sheesh! I can't see how much more I can explain it.

If you want it changed then get into the exam boards about it.I reckon they'd laugh you out of their offices.

Whoah! I totally take on board what you say about the sanctity of the exam system, the need to prevent cheating etc but I simply do not see how those black trainers undermine that system - especially if, as this lad alleges, he has been wearing them for several weeks. And I do think you need to balance the need for discipline and adherence to the rules with basic common sense which, on the face of it, has not been applied here.