Vote 2005 week 3, with another new poll

[etccarmageddon]

Originally Posted by iadom

Classic quote on the ITV late news tonight, Tony 'Bliar' (not an sp) has visited the neglected North once again.

As he was going walkabout on a council estate in Rochdale, the reporter said, "the people on the estate looked out to see a strange sight, no not Mr Blair but the policeman with him" .

Now I laughed at first, but as they say, "many a true word spoken in jest".

funny that - I saw a couple of coppers patrolling Baguley a few saturdays back - I had the same feeling - i.e. what a strange sight. I almost pulled over and asked if they were lost! another reason to not vote Labour as they have screwed the budget this year for manchester police which will result in cut backs.

That kind of slur probably gets you a barrel of laughs down at your local Labour club but it does nothing to advance the cause of reasoned, adult debate. Shame on you.

Love it! Good idea, I might give it a try, but I'm too busy. Any shame belongs to any Bitish Tory voting, tax dodging, truck driver who may be involved in people smuggling.

Rubbish. As the Tories have been pointing out, the Immigration Service is one of IIRC eight agencies involved in the whole business of keeping people out of the UK who should not be here. The IS processes the ones that get caught, but you yourself have also mentioned the Inland Revenue, and there are others, Customs and Excise being an example. The Tory policy of streamlining border policing and control seems eminently sensible to me. Only a true red Labourite, with that typical 'jobs for the boys' mentality (bring down unemployment by stuffing the public sector with useless middle managers and administrators), could think otherwise. More on that in a second though.

The issue is solely being raised to grab votes, immigrants whether legal or not are the people who bear the cross on this, there have racist incidents during this campaign already. I believe that IND and relevant government agencies are doing their job, go and see the forced removals at Heathrow or Gatwick, it's brutal. The Torys intend to sack thousands of civil servants, the Home Office is no doubt a target.

Clearly they are not insignificant, else it would not be an election issue in every seat whose constituency has a problem. How I wish you were campaigning in a place like Dover. It would be fun listening to you defend the indefensible while it was right under your nose instead of at a safe distance.

Clearly number crunching will show there is no need for concern. There is controlled immigration. You keep quoting Dover, have you tried counting those UK citizens who leave to take up residence in France or Spain etc. The government has been dispersing claimants over many towns. Can't people like you have any pity for asylum seekers, why must you continue to treat them as if they are inferior.

Errrm... they have already candidly admitted that pruning the mess your lot have made of the public sector is part of how they're going to save a great big wad of public cash. I don't see why this should bother you though. If the economy is in the truly rosy state you assure us it is, then it oughtn't be too hard for them to find alternative, useful employment

The economy has been in safe hands since 1997, low inflation, low interest rates and low unemployment. If your friend Mr. Howard takes over he and his friends will ruin it. Where will Mr. Howard find his £35 billion spending cuts? The health service , education, public services will be denied the money they need.

Can't people like you have any pity for asylum seekers, why must you continue to treat them as if they are inferior.

He certainly didn't say that. He said it needs to be controlled. I differ with him on that because the figures show that after a massive rise it then fell dramatically. At the moment its on a par with 1997 or under. Also labour has increased the numbers of officers. Basically a lot is being done.

The fact the torys did spend ages on this one issue however (imo) is because they are being chasing votes on this issue without offering any real ways to address it.

1) Which country is going to agree for an off-shore processing centre to be put into their country?

2) A 'quota' on immigrants? That is amazing, which happens if we suddenly need more skilled workers?

3) They already admitted they cant afford a 24 hour security at every port

They keep using 'its not racist to talk about immigration' but no one is accusing them of that, why do they keep using the same term!? It seems to me that this appeals to people who are constantly worried about being called racist? It looks a wink to some people that the Tories are on there side. Also while Chris has explained himself and is genuinely worried about immigration there is no doubt that some people using worries about immigration to hide a under-lying mistrust of racist feelings towards immigrants! (i.e they are getting free houses, they cause disease, and more tellingly everyone thinks of muslims and asians. No one thinks of americans, europeans, or one of the single biggest groups the irish)

Originally Posted by Gogogo

Love it! Good idea, I might give it a try, but I'm too busy. Any shame belongs to any Bitish Tory voting, tax dodging, truck driver who may be involved in people smuggling.

So British, tax-dodging, people-smuggling truck drivers are OK in your book, so long as they vote Labour? OK ....

The issue is solely being raised to grab votes, immigrants whether legal or not are the people who bear the cross on this, there have racist incidents during this campaign already.

Yes, the issue is being raised to grab votes. The purpose of every statement made by every politician for the last two and a half weeks is to grab votes. The purpose of every statement made by every politician for the next two and a half weeks will also be to grab votes. We're in the middle of a General Election and everybody wants to win it. To win it you need votes, and to get votes you have to promise to do things the voters deem worthwhile. I don't see the problem.

As for racist incidents ... the biggest problem seems to be in Bethnal Green, where Oona King (Blairite bottom-licker) and George Galloway (loony left, real Labourite) are slugging it out. Go figure.

I believe that IND and relevant government agencies are doing their job, go and see the forced removals at Heathrow or Gatwick, it's brutal. The Torys intend to sack thousands of civil servants, the Home Office is no doubt a target.

I don't know why you keep raising this as if it's a scandalous secret. Everyone knows Labour has swelled the civil service with excessive middle-managers and pen-pushers and that should the Tories get the chance they will improve efficiency by making redundancies. Those who face the axe should aim their inevitable resentment at the Labour money-wasters who gave them false hope in the first place.

Clearly number crunching will show there is no need for concern. There is controlled immigration.

Number crunching? I wish. What a pity your esteemed leader Blair proved that he and his Goverment haven't the first clue how to crunch numbers on asylum and immigration, and in fact that they don't even know what the numbers are. How many times was it that Paxman tried to get him to answer that point? About 20? How can there be 'control' when nobody in the Government knows, even as a rough estimate, how many illegal immigrants there are in the UK?

You keep quoting Dover, have you tried counting those UK citizens who leave to take up residence in France or Spain etc. The government has been dispersing claimants over many towns. Can't people like you have any pity for asylum seekers, why must you continue to treat them as if they are inferior.

Is that how you deal with people who have a disagreement with you? In the final analysis all you can manage is to slur and distort. I don't consider asylum seekers inferior. And Our lorry fleet is not crewed by shameless, tax-dodging tory people smugglers. I have lost all hope of ever getting something like reasoned opinion out of you so I don't propose to try any longer. There you go, you can have the last word if you want it.

The economy has been in safe hands since 1997, low inflation, low interest rates and low unemployment. If your friend Mr. Howard takes over he and his friends will ruin it. Where will Mr. Howard find his £35 billion spending cuts? The health service , education, public services will be denied the money they need.

Utter, utter, blinkered rubbish. If you really think that the economy was in a mess until 1997 and then was miraculously turned round in about six months, by an incoming Labour government that made no attempt to change Tory spending plans for two whole years, then you have absolutely no understanding of politics or economics whatsoever. If I were the chairman of your local Labour party I'd be frankly terrified to send you out canvassing. Anybody with an ounce of sense should have no trouble tying you up in knots on their doorstep.

Number crunching? I wish. What a pity your esteemed leader Blair proved that he and his Goverment haven't the first clue how to crunch numbers on asylum and immigration, and in fact that they don't even know what the numbers are. How many times was it that Paxman tried to get him to answer that point? About 20? How can there be 'control' when nobody in the Government knows, even as a rough estimate, how many illegal immigrants there are in the UK?

Howard himself when he was in government said that you cannot put a number of illegal immigrants.

Also from the bbc:

Originally Posted by BBC

A number of leading academics in the field say they have not found a system they would presently trust to come up with a figure for illegal immigration to the UK - although they are trying to come up with a way of finding out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...es/4472735.stm

[Shaun]

http://www.tacticalvoter.net/?show=index&

Very intresting site!

Originally Posted by Chris TUtter, utter, blinkered rubbish. If you really think that the economy was in a mess until 1997 and then was miraculously turned round in about six months, by an incoming Labour government that made no attempt to change Tory spending plans for [i

two whole years[/i], then you have absolutely no understanding of politics or economics whatsoever. If I were the chairman of your local Labour party I'd be frankly terrified to send you out canvassing. Anybody with an ounce of sense should have no trouble tying you up in knots on their doorstep.

You have a capacity for being unpleasant and insulting. I suggest you get out and experience something of the real world.

[bmxbandit]

trends so far on cf:

conservatives are holding steady (no surprises there )
lib dem & labour trading blows (as might be expected)
big swing of minority parties voters turning apathetic (are we all really this predictable? )


yes, i'm bored.

[bob_builder]

Great graph bmxbandit!

A minor suggestion - would it be possible to change the colours to their more normal connections (Red for Labour, etc.) for next week? That woud greatly improve the readability.

[bmxbandit]

Originally Posted by bob_builder

A minor suggestion - would it be possible to change the colours to their more normal connections (Red for Labour, etc.) for next week? That woud greatly improve the readability.

y'know, i never thought of that! changed...you might need to do a ctrl-F5 to see the new one though.

[bob_builder]

Originally Posted by bmxbandit

y'know, i never thought of that! changed...you might need to do a ctrl-F5 to see the new one though.

__________________

Originally Posted by Shaun

http://www.tacticalvoter.net/?show=index&

Very intresting site!

It is but it is very biased against the Conservatives:

Originally Posted by TacticalVoter

The campaign is co-ordinated by Jason Buckley, who ran the site in 2001. Jason is a newly qualified teacher and has never been a member of a political party †“ he just wants to keep the Tories as far from power as possible.

Does anybody know if there is a similar site in which you can swap your vote to oust Labour?

Apologies if someone has already mentioned this but........ did anyone see Hague trying to defend the asylum seeker quota policy on Question Time. It was hilarious. One would almost think he didn't believe in it himself from the mess he got into. Apparently it's a quota except that it's not cos they after they've hit the limit they will still let people in if need be.

[NitroNutter]

Link

In a speech to party activists in Hastings, East Sussex, he said: "Tony Blair's lost the plot; he's talked a lot and failed to deliver; he's told lies to win elections.

Reality Check: Look for the whoppers i'm going to say as I am a politicain aswell.

Well, I don't believe in saying one thing but doing another. With me, what you see is what you get.

Reality check: I play the same game, just like my predecessors.

On May the 5th take a stand on the things that matter...on May the 5th take a stand and vote Conservative.

Reality Check: I dont care really we will all get paid anyway, a change in government is inevetible, just maybe not in my time as Conservative leader. We all play golf at the same club and none of us really give a stuff about the people of the country. Every so often we have to actually make it look like we do something by giving the people the oportunity of believing they actually have a say. Polls show election turn out is still going to be reasonable, you can still fool most of the people most of the time ;-)

Vote 2005. Enjoy the sham. They act so well they deserve the pay for these occasional shows they have to put on.

[etccarmageddon]

Originally Posted by Chris T

...If you really think that the economy was in a mess until 1997 and then was miraculously turned round in about six months, by an incoming Labour government that made no attempt to change Tory spending plans for two whole years, then you have absolutely no understanding of politics or economics whatsoever...

who says the economy is in good shape now? despite tax increases and raiding the pension funds, the government is borrowing loads of dosh in order to keep to their spending plans:-

http://business.scotsman.com/economy.cfm?id=77972004

Originally Posted by Chris T

) years[/i], ... If I were the chairman of your local Labour party I'd be frankly terrified to send you out canvassing. Anybody with an ounce of sense should have no trouble tying you up in knots on their doorstep.

You clearly have no understanding of the procedure of Voter ID practised by the three leading parties. The goal is to secure promises, identify your support or the voter's likely choice. You have no time to engage in intellectual debate, this is often a tactic practised by opposition supporters who aim to delay your work, one moves on.

Significantly, the Tories have not debated the economy clearly their weakest arguments are there, hence why they concentrate on immigration and tax.