Wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!!

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Shaun

I take it that smilie was aimed at me.

Yes it was

Originally Posted by Shaun

It was that or I got banned with some comment about you thinking your religous beliefs should influence the lives of millions of gay people in this country.

a) I have not mentioned religion.

b) I am not saying my views are how the world should be. I'm not trying to change any law or influence anyone. I'm just giving "my views".

[danielf]

Originally Posted by punky

A couple of points I didn't make earlier.

Firstly, a marriage is a purely religious thing, which as most religions prohibit gay relations, I can't see how any gay marriage can ever be legal in the eyes of God. What we know to be marriage, like signing the license, the tax benefits, and spousal rights, is a purely civil aspect we humans created away from marriage, but happen to allocate at the same time. It is, and should be, sexuality independent.

Sorry Punky, but that is nonsense. I'm getting married and I am a staunch Atheist. Marriage is a civil as well as religious affair, and as far as I'm concerned they have little to do with each other. I certainly will not be going through a religious marriage.

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by Russ D

But as your first point alludes to, times have changed. It is difficult enough being a parent and wondering how to explain a great many things in the world to your child without this sort of thing. I certainly don't agree with it but sadly for those who want to try and paint me as being an intolerant bigot, I won't be telling my daughter it's "evil" or any of that claptrap.

But how would you feel when she is older if she came home and announced to you she was gay? Do you think she would even be able to tell you? knowing your views?

Originally Posted by Russ D

Hang on.....was that a dig at me living in Wales??????

Well Russ, in my eyes that is one of the most evil and backward things one can do with thier lives

Originally Posted by Chris T

With the greatest of respect Nem, that's exactly what it is. OB the OP didn't just launch a thread about gay marriage being legalised in Spain, she launched a thread with the question 'wonder what the new Pope thinks of this!' That is explicitly inviting religious opinion on the matter.

I agree but Im thinking for the threads sake maybe we should keep the two at a safe distance? You know how long, aggressive and off topic these threads tend to get We will be talking about evolution and the existance of mythical invisable unicorns in no time

Originally Posted by orangebird

Male influences come from a lot more than just a father - grandparents, friends, teachers etc.

I was thinking that myself.

[NitroNutter]

At the end of the day the only reason being gay was made legal in the first place was because of blackmail offences.
What do we legalise next because of blackmails or even "out of court settlements"

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Russ D

A partnership, civil union or whatever - just not marriage.

A rose by any other name.

Originally Posted by Chris T

This has nothing to do with whether or not homosexuality is a choice, and to be honest it's not about what a homosexual couple might want either, it's about what is best for the children.

So following on from that, we go back to those women that have children because they want a council flat or just plain want a child and can't look after them. Would you advocate compulsory abortion like OB mentioned to "save" the children from a life of neglect?


My own personal view on the subjects raised are that itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s great Spain have legalized Gay marriage and I think the political parties here should get on with sorting it out. As for adoption it's not something that would affect me as we wouldn't want children. Saying that, I think it's shocking that many religious people (not all by a long shot but many) think it's acceptable to influence others lives because of their own convictions.

If we're still permitted to mention religion, I think it's a fraud, but I do uphold others right to believe what they like so long as it doesn't influence my life in ANY way.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by ZrByte

But how would you feel when she is older if she came home and announced to you she was gay? Do you think she would even be able to tell you? knowing your views?

If I was anti-gay and sickened by the thought if it etc then she may find it difficult to tell me. However by the time she's at the age where she can honestly say she knows her own sexuality, she'll know me better than that.
__________________

Originally Posted by Shaun

A rose by any other name.

Plus the rose would not be planted in a church? Check your PMs btw.

Never a man of my word, I will now re-enter the topic (for now):

I just want to clear something up

Gay Marriage- I have no problem with gay couples, I have no problem with that. What I possibly reject to is the term 'Marriage'. This is because it is seen by religious followers as a union between a man and a woman. A government cannot make laws regarding to religion. Church and state, they MUST be kept separate. Spain should not decide that gay couples can get 'married', only the church should do that as marriage is a religious term. What the state can and should do is allow civil unions. That has all the same laws and advantages of marriage only without that term, that respects the rights of gay couples without telling the church what to do on religious issues. Leave marriage to the church.

Gay adoption - I do not have any idea on this. They should be allowed to have the rights of a normal couple, on the other hand I do not know the other side. I do not know the affect on the child, i do not know what that child will think when he/she grows up. This is a very complex issue that none of us can really understand until more studies are taken. There is a rights issue, but then there are the rights of the child and the effect on that child.

These two things are different, the union between gay couples is between two consenting adults so there isnt a problem there (expect with the term) but the adoption brings a 3rd non-consenting child into the equation. So thats where it gets complex

[Nemesis]

Where is marriage defined as a religious term ?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Where is marriage defined as a religious term ?

The bible - therefore if christianity is not your inspiration then it doesn't matter.

A rose by any other name.

It is the name that causes the problem! If we get rid of the word marriage this whole thing would be sidestepped. The simple word 'marriage' is what brings religion into this.

If we're still permitted to mention religion, I think it's a fraud, but I do uphold others right to believe what they like so long as it doesn't influence my life in ANY way

Same goes the other way, The church doesn't influence us as a state and we as a state do not influence the church. Church and state, keep them separate. Its the best way to avoid ill-feeling and anger

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by Russ D

The bible - therefore if christianity is not your inspiration then it doesn't matter.

But the term marriage far predates christianity, so just because the bible uses this term it doesnt mean they have copyright over it

Allthough technically the term marriage doesnt even appear in the bible (appart from translations) as I dont think marriage was a word in the language of the original writers.

[punky]

Originally Posted by danielf

Sorry Punky, but that is nonsense. I'm getting married and I am a staunch Atheist. Marriage is a civil as well as religious affair, and as far as I'm concerned they have little to do with each other. I certainly will not be going through a religious marriage.

I think you misread me. I never said they were one-and-the-same, I was actually trying say what you were, (badly, apparently), that the religious side and civil side were created independent, and should be kept away from each other. Of course, and when athiests get married they do it in a registry office, with a civil servant. That is a modern alternative to the tradition of marriage. We call it marriage, but this isn't what marriage was concieved as hundreds, or rather thousands of years ago.

You don't have to go to church, perform the declaration under God, and swap the bahns. That's been what marriage was long before marriage certificates, registry offices, and tax breaks became a part of the marriage. Everyone goes through the civil part of the marriage, which is the signing the license. Anything else is optional.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by ZrByte

But the term marriage far predates christianity, so just because the bible uses this term it doesnt mean they have copyright over it

Hence I said, if it's not your inspiration....etc

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Damien

Never a man of my word, I will now re-enter the topic (for now):

I just want to clear something up

Gay Marriage- I have no problem with gay couples, I have no problem with that. What I possibly reject to is the term 'Marriage'. This is because it is seen by religious followers as a union between a man and a woman. A government cannot make laws regarding to religion. Church and state, they MUST be kept separate. Spain should not decide that gay couples can get 'married', only the church should do that as marriage is a religious term. What the state can and should do is allow civil unions. That has all the same laws and advantages of marriage only without that term, that respects the rights of gay couples without telling the church what to do on religious issues. Leave marriage to the church.

Daniel, go and get a history lesson... Who heads the state? The Queen. How do you think, for so many centuries, heads of States (kings, queens etc) made decisions about how the country was run? Religion!!!!!!

Gay adoption - I do not have any idea on this. They should be allowed to have the rights of a normal couple, on the other hand I do not know the other side. I do not know the affect on the child, i do not know what that child will think when he/she grows up. This is a very complex issue that none of us can really understand until more studies are taken. There is a rights issue, but then there are the rights of the child and the effect on that child.

These two things are different, the union between gay couples is between two consenting adults so there isnt a problem there (expect with the term) but the adoption brings a 3rd non-consenting child into the equation. So thats where it gets complex

So, what do you do. Give a child to a family that want's it, or leave it in a temporary unstable home until the law thinks the 'right' kind of couple comes along?

Originally Posted by Shaun

So following on from that, we go back to those women that have children because they want a council flat or just plain want a child and can't look after them. Would you advocate compulsory abortion like OB mentioned to "save" the children from a life of neglect?

Well that has to be a rhetorical question. I think (I hope) you're indulging in a little reduction to absurd-but-logical conclusion here, because I know you wouldn't advocate such compulsory abortion and I think I know that you don't think I would advocate it ... ... however, I don't think your reduction is valid because my starting point is the rights of and the protection of the child, and I think abortion is a fundamental abuse of the rights of the child. 'Nuff said about abortion though, that's another thread all by itself.

My own personal view on the subjects raised are that itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s great Spain have legalized Gay marriage and I think the political parties here should get on with sorting it out. As for adoption it's not something that would affect me as we wouldn't want children. Saying that, I think it's shocking that many religious people (not all by a long shot but many) think it's acceptable to influence others lives because of their own convictions.

If we're still permitted to mention religion, I think it's a fraud, but I do uphold others right to believe what they like so long as it doesn't influence my life in ANY way.

I completely respect your right to have a view, and to live your life according to that view. However on the matter of religious people influencing the lives of others, well I'm afraid it comes with the territory. Christianity is an evangelistic religion. It makes claims to absolute truth, i.e. the universe is a certain way, and this requires a certain response from everyone who lives in it, and it places on believers the obligation to share that truth with the whole world. If I could indulge in a little logical reduction myself, if it weren't for Christians trying to influence the lives of others, we would still have a slave trade and children would still be going out to work at the age of five instead of going to school.