ID card Bill dropped

[me283]

Originally Posted by scastle

Agreed. I too can see the benefits (not sure increased security will be one as someone will inevitably find a way to forge ID cards), but I don't trust the government to implement it. Look at the fun they've had with the various projects they have been involved with so far (CPS anyone?).



Heavens.. We agree on something?

Thing is, the risk of forgery cannot be a valid argument. You could say the sam e about credit cards, and even cash; it's just a risk you have to take into account.
__________________

Originally Posted by BBKing

The Tories, certainly Michael Howard, are just as keen on ID cards, so no go there.

We're British, we don't do goons in uniform demanding papers. A hearty 'Get Stuffed' to that idea. Check out how the ID card scheme the existed during WW2 ended - basically a member of the public told a copper to eff off - it got to court and the judge ruled that the law was daft.

The key point here was never the ID card - it's the national database of about 50 different things about everyone in Britain (except foreigners, including the Irish, who in particular are allowed to come in without passports, either. Of course, there's no terrorist threat there, is there?). Such a database is a) invasive b) expensive and c) wouldn't work properly anyway. The risk is that if your details on it are incorrect, they are seen as correct by the entire State apparatus and you are the one who is wrong because 'the computer says so'. Technology isn't advanced enough yet and Government IT is less trustworthy than an abacus anyway.

The only people who'd benefit would be policemen with an interest in bossing people around and large multinational consultancies who'd take billions of our money and deliver a crap system.

__________________

Originally Posted by BBKing

The Tories, certainly Michael Howard, are just as keen on ID cards, so no go there.

We're British, we don't do goons in uniform demanding papers. A hearty 'Get Stuffed' to that idea. Check out how the ID card scheme the existed during WW2 ended - basically a member of the public told a copper to eff off - it got to court and the judge ruled that the law was daft.

The key point here was never the ID card - it's the national database of about 50 different things about everyone in Britain (except foreigners, including the Irish, who in particular are allowed to come in without passports, either. Of course, there's no terrorist threat there, is there?). Such a database is a) invasive b) expensive and c) wouldn't work properly anyway. The risk is that if your details on it are incorrect, they are seen as correct by the entire State apparatus and you are the one who is wrong because 'the computer says so'. Technology isn't advanced enough yet and Government IT is less trustworthy than an abacus anyway.

The only people who'd benefit would be policemen with an interest in bossing people around and large multinational consultancies who'd take billions of our money and deliver a crap system.

I would prefer a system that holds a lot of info, as it reduces the risk of forgery and fraud. I use online banking, and they ask several security questions... and not always the same ones. Suits me.

[Xaccers]

Thats the thing, other countries have implimented ID cards and they've worked (even with fingerprint data), they don't get goons asking for people's papers just for the hell of it, it's when the person is involved in an incident (also very useful if someone's involved in an accident or found dead!)
As for the fear that having your fingerprints on file means the goverment can track you, well I think people have been watching too much CSI!
If a fingerprint is lifted, then certain points and charactoristics are matched, it's not like they move one image over another and go "bingo, perfect match"
If a search was done on a lifted print it would probably come up with thousands of matches, so finding the identity without already having a suspect is nigh impossible.
Personally I feel that a conviction on fingerprint evidence alone should not be allowed, as previous events in scotland showed when a WPC's fingerprints were technically found at a crime scene she'd never been to (enough points matched even though it wasn't her print)
Fingerprints may be unique, the results from analysing them aren't!

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by me283

Thing is, the risk of forgery cannot be a valid argument. You could say the sam e about credit cards, and even cash; it's just a risk you have to take into account.

Actually, I was making the point that the government has said that ID cards will prevent terrorism. I don't think they will. There will be a way for terrorists to forge them. I wasn't using the risk of forgery as a reason not to introduce ID cards.

Having said that, I actually agree with ID cards.

[me283]

Originally Posted by scastle

Actually, I was making the point that the government has said that ID cards will prevent terrorism. I don't think they will. There will be a way for terrorists to forge them. I wasn't using the risk of forgery as a reason not to introduce ID cards.

Having said that, I actually agree with ID cards.

Fair enough, my mistake. I'm with you on ID cards too.

[BBKing]

(also very useful if someone's involved in an accident or found dead!)

As long as they remember to take their ID card with them if they're going to be found dead. The point is, it's presumably possible to identify people now without spending billions on dodgy IT systems and forcing us all to queue up at registration points where we all get fingerprinted and iris scanned on pain of imprisonment.

I'd happily raise a glass at this scheme's funeral wake if I thought it wasn't just going to get resurrected right after the election. Seeing as I don't believe there has been any doubt about May 5 in the minds of Blair and others for quite some time now, they must have suspected this bill would fail to become Law in this Parliament. The plans will be well laid for them to pick it up in the new one.

The best we can hope for now is a Labour majority reduced to the point where Blair has to heed the considerable number of backbench rebels who won't support it. Or a Lib Dem government, of course, which won't introduce any such scheme. Sadly I don't think there's much chance of that.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by BBKing

As long as they remember to take their ID card with them if they're going to be found dead. The point is, it's presumably possible to identify people now without spending billions on dodgy IT systems and forcing us all to queue up at registration points where we all get fingerprinted and iris scanned on pain of imprisonment.

Of course if they're made compulsary, then there's more chance that the ID card will be present on the victim.

As for forgery, if the cards are electronically checked against the information in the database rather than just checking your picture/signature/pin etc then it's much harder to forge a working card, just as it's hard for people to get away with using false numberplates on their cars when they're checked.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Chris T

I'd happily raise a glass at this scheme's funeral wake if I thought it wasn't just going to get resurrected right after the election.

To be honest, I am wondering wether it would be. It hardly has any support, and not even from the people who fighting terrorism is their #1 priority, who Tony tried to pander it to. They also underestimated the amount of people, for who fighting terrorism is a #1 priority too it looks like.

They have manage to find a good excuse to drop it... If they pick it back up, surely they are just asking for trouble. They'd better off hoping the issue goes away quietly.

Originally Posted by punky

To be honest, I am wondering wether it would be. It hardly has any support, and not even from the people who fighting terrorism is their #1 priority, who Tony tried to pander it to. They also underestimated the amount of people, for who fighting terrorism is a #1 priority too it looks like.

They have manage to find a good excuse to drop it... If they pick it back up, surely they are just asking for trouble. They'd better off hoping the issue goes away quietly.

Oh God, I'm agreeing with Punky again. Guess I must be overdue that holiday

The whole ID cards thing will be a costly and useless mess. The scope for c*ck up on the IT side alone scares me given governments' (of both persuasions) general inability to get any technlogy project done to budget, deadline and specification. The fact that ID cards are unlikely to actually reduce the risk of terorist threat also makes me wonder what the real agenda (not for long though). ID cards coupled with those new speed cameras that read your plate and calculate your average speed over some distance, plus mobile phone records (I could go on)... the scope for abuse is immense.

[Xaccers]

If politicians were able to cut through the waffle and actually list the real honest to god benifits of ID cards then I'm sure more people would accept them (although according to media polls public support is high)

Course that still leaves the implimentation problem and there's no way this goverment could do it properly!

[punky]

OK, Labour are officially muppets

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04...ditches_cards/

They definitely will be coming back if Labour win. Surely they won't now, they would have lost too many votes to Lib Dem, and maybe even a couple to the Tories.

[Matth]

The biggest defect of the "first past the post" voting system is it takes to big a swing to change anything, and places most of the responsibility for that change on a limited number of marginals - I'd favor straight proportional, even if it gave a few seats to extremists of all varieties... if the other parties were so deadlocked that a few cranks could call the shots, they's be 100% to blame for that situation.

It seems the best we can hope for, is a hung parliament, or one so close to it that a reasonable number of dissenters on the governing party can turn any vote that does not have all-party support.

Originally Posted by punky

OK, Labour are officially muppetshttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04...ditches_cards/
They definitely will be coming back if Labour win. Surely they won't now, they would have lost too many votes to Lib Dem, and maybe even a couple to the Tories.

Actually would disagree. Labour voters traditionally rather abstain than vote for muppets like the Liberals, some might vote for the Liberals but most would abstain I know this from experience. Anyway, it's early days it's a long way to go and who knows. Maybe, traditional Labour voters will be out in force. More likely that the muppet Tories will squeeze the Liberal vote.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

If politicians were able to cut through the waffle and actually list the real honest to god benifits of ID cards then I'm sure more people would accept them

if more people understood the truth about ID cards (and doesn't even *include* the costs!), I'm damn certain that more people would be dead set against them!

(although according to media polls public support is high)

Only because too few people realise what they would actually entail.

For more on this, see all my other posts on ID cards because I'm not going to do them all again!!

[the_neurotic_cat]

I think I know the motive's beihind the ID cards, it's the same old story of 'more power' for the power elite. It's not conscious or anything, just human nature.

Fear is usually the rationalisation to justify the aggregation of power. It's always happened during times of war, now we have the perpetual 'war of terrorism' ... sheesh.

Sod Tony Blair and his 'Hi, I'm Tony and I want to be your friend' crap. Stick it where bush's male poultry goes!