Another reason to avoid HSBC

[Russ]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4353423.stm

When will those idiots learn...

Unbelievable.

[Caspar]

First of all let me say I don't support off-shoreing work that UK employee's currently have just to save money, even if it is:

He pointed out that the bank saved about $20,000 (£10,40 0) for every job it moved.

My point is..what technically does off-shoring mean!... My understanding of people's hatred of the practice comes from UK companies cutting jobs and moving the work to ASIA.

But how can the same term be applied to a non-UK company, such as HSBC...which is a Hong Kong Bank, arn't they just pulling out of the UK, to some degree?

Please enlighten me on the subtle differences in UK/International companies and off-shoreing?

[Russ]

My gripe is I am British and I want easy access to my money and I expect the service involved to be of the standard to which I'm accustomed in the UK.

I have yet to recieve this from any company with Indian callcentres. I even closed my acccount with HSBC and moved to Nationwide purely because my new bank only used UK callcentres. If this changes I'll just move on to another bank, possibly the Co-operative.

Originally Posted by Russ D

My gripe is I am British and I want easy access to my money and I expect the service involved to be of the standard to which I'm accustomed in the UK.

I have yet to recieve this from any company with Indian callcentres. I even closed my acccount with HSBC and moved to Nationwide purely because my new bank only used UK callcentres. If this changes I'll just move on to another bank, possibly the Co-operative.

Here here!!!

NatWest are another bank who dont have overseas call centres.

[AndrewJ]

Was thinking of a current account from them, time to tell the gf to try Natwest then.

[Caspar]

Originally Posted by Russ D

My gripe is I am British and I want easy access to my money and I expect the service involved to be of the standard to which I'm accustomed in the UK.

I have yet to recieve this from any company with Indian callcentres. I even closed my acccount with HSBC and moved to Nationwide purely because my new bank only used UK callcentres. If this changes I'll just move on to another bank, possibly the Co-operative.

So the gripe is where the customers are, not the fact that UK jobs are being lost?

I used to outsource a lot of Web development work to India-based tech company's. Their work was of reasonable quality and cheap. BUT, I agree there was a huge language [and time barrier] when dealing with them. Conversations on the phone were a nightmare since neither I or them could understand each other. Emails were hilarious bytes of laughter, due to their poor english. Although, this is different to call centers as these tech people are not trained call centre staff.

I agree with not wanting to speak to non-locals...I had to phone up Sky the other month and got through to some India-based c/c. The lady was really funny...really polite, to a point!... I must have said a few times to her to calm down!!! She started to raise her voice at me...although I was 'testing' her a bit!

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Caspar

So the gripe is where the customers are, not the fact that UK jobs are being lost?

That would come a close second. Regardless of where the company are from, a UK job is a UK job.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Caspar

First of all let me say I don't support off-shoreing work that UK employee's currently have just to save money, even if it is:

My point is..what technically does off-shoring mean!... My understanding of people's hatred of the practice comes from UK companies cutting jobs and moving the work to ASIA.

But how can the same term be applied to a non-UK company, such as HSBC...which is a Hong Kong Bank, arn't they just pulling out of the UK, to some degree?

Please enlighten me on the subtle differences in UK/International companies and off-shoreing?

I think that when they took over the Midland, HSBC re-incorporated the whole company and based it in England.

The world headquarters is just over the other side of the Thames from where I am sitting now (and is in the Canary Wharf complex).

[Caspar]

Originally Posted by scastle

I think that when they took over the Midland, HSBC re-incorporated the whole company and based it in England.

The world headquarters is just over the other side of the Thames from where I am sitting now (and is in the Canary Wharf complex).

I stand corrected!

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Caspar

First of all let me say I don't support off-shoreing work that UK employee's currently have just to save money, even if it is:

My point is..what technically does off-shoring mean!... My understanding of people's hatred of the practice comes from UK companies cutting jobs and moving the work to ASIA.

But how can the same term be applied to a non-UK company, such as HSBC...which is a Hong Kong Bank, arn't they just pulling out of the UK, to some degree?

Please enlighten me on the subtle differences in UK/International companies and off-shoreing?

HSBC is a UK listed plc, so technically a British company in the same way Glaxo or Shell is a British company.

From a corporate point of view they need to comply with tax and legal requirements of each country they operate in, but ultimately these entities roll up to a UK company and the global profits are subject to UK corporation tax. As an aside, many global companies have multiple listings. HSBC shares are traded in London (primary) and also NY, Paris and HK.

Ofshoring to me means servicing a customer or need from outside the country of the customer (or primary customer base). It can of course have it's advantages if done well, take the US Airlines for example, most have call centres in the middle of the US, Dublin and an Asian location, this means you can have 24 hr call servicing and people working during their normal daylight hours, such ofshoring is good - well better than creating an army of nightworkers IMHO. It's less good when you move (sorry recruit) a whole army of CSRs to another continent.

IMHO in time the tide will turn, there are a lot of talented english speaking people in India, but as more firms set up these centres the laws of supply and demand will push the cost of this labour up changing the economics of the ofshoring process.

[Caspar]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

IMHO in time the tide will turn, there are a lot of talented english speaking people in India, but as more firms set up these centres the laws of supply and demand will push the cost of this labour up changing the economics of the ofshoring process.

I agree with that and found the case very true. First time I got into outsourcing work India..the Indian company approached me [my company]. They offered to take on some work for free to build up their portfoolio, a common and obvious tactic for new startups, this would have been about 5 years ago or so. For each new project we sought new Indian companies expertise, for financial and for comparative reasons. Eventually when we asked a company to do a piece of work, after having a few months worth of cheap costs...they ramped them up to near UK prices!!!

In the end, it was decided to keep the development in-house and get freelancers in the UK to top up the projects! In the end, it just wasn't worth the hassle of dealing with the language, culture and time barriers that Asia/Pacific companies come with.

Infact, their quality of work degraded due to less staff being available...them spreading themselves thin... but the costs went up and duration too! ...I bet the 'shop floor workers' didn't get a pay increase tho!

I hope none of those who are up in arms about this have foreign cars, electronics, groceries etc. It's hypocritical to complain about companies outsourcing when we take advantage of the global economy elsewhere. If outsourcing diminishes service, then that's a different matter but I've not yet had a bad experience with an Indian call centre whereas I could cite, for example, NTL CS or indeed Symantec. I recently had useless (and surly) assistance from Symantec' London call centre, went on the online chat support, didn't get much joy so pleaded with them to call. A bloke did, from India, even though, as he explained, they weren't supposed to. He was the most helpful guy on the planet and talked me down step-by-step in English which would shame many a UK call centre operator (and he'd never even been to Europe or the States).

I'd rather we didn't have globalisation which treats labour as just another commodity, or indeed a UK economy which is now so dependent on the service sector because we decimated our manufacturing industries. But we do, and we're all going to have to learn to live with it. I should add that I certainly do sympathise with those working in UK call centres who face losing their jobs, but it's an inevitable consequence (unless we start putting import tariffs on services which will no doubt mean retaliatory tariffs against us)

[Russ]

Originally Posted by andyl

I hope none of those who are up in arms about this have foreign cars, electronics, groceries etc.

I'm not hypocritical - I'm against outsourcing because of the degredation in customer service.

[scrotnig]

Originally Posted by andyl

I hope none of those who are up in arms about this have foreign cars, electronics, groceries etc. It's hypocritical to complain about companies outsourcing when we take advantage of the global economy elsewhere. If outsourcing diminishes service, then that's a different matter but I've not yet had a bad experience with an Indian call centre whereas I could cite, for example, NTL CS or indeed Symantec. I recently had useless (and surly) assistance from Symantec' London call centre, went on the online chat support, didn't get much joy so pleaded with them to call. A bloke did, from India, even though, as he explained, they weren't supposed to. He was the most helpful guy on the planet and talked me down step-by-step in English which would shame many a UK call centre operator (and he'd never even been to Europe or the States).

I'd rather we didn't have globalisation which treats labour as just another commodity, or indeed a UK economy which is now so dependent on the service sector because we decimated our manufacturing industries. But we do, and we're all going to have to learn to live with it. I should add that I certainly do sympathise with those working in UK call centres who face losing their jobs, but it's an inevitable consequence (unless we start putting import tariffs on services which will no doubt mean retaliatory tariffs against us)

So, we're all going to have to live with it even when there are NO jobs left in the UK? What do we do then?

I take it YOUR job isn't under threat? What will you do when it is? Get another one? And what about when there aren't any more to get?

And who is going to buy these companies' products in the UK if no one in the UK has a job any more?

UK companies serving UK customers should have those jobs in the UK.

And it isn't just call centre jobs, we even have companies getting letters typed up in India, plus off course the offshoring of loads of IT development.

UK jobs should be in the UK. Period. If it means taxing the firms to the hilt if they offshore, then fine.