The Welfare State

[allieyoung666]

I wish they would leave Paul alone then as he will eventually lose is leg and then I will be his full time carer and I do not want to be one. If the man next door wants a mow a lawn and he has parkinsons thats his business. I know for a fact when I go onto the ward today there will be at least one druggy or one alcho there. They do not deserve anything as they are such a big drain on the system, it makes me laugh when they rant on and on, did we make them do that no!!!! As for my neighbour all he seems good for is inciting trouble in the street and even the asbo team have had enough!

[Pierre]

Here's a choice facing the youth of today: Picture two teenage girls aged 16.

Girl 1: is bright and want to be a doctor, she goes to college, then to university, she works part-time at night in a pub and sandwich making factory,so she can afford all the expensive medical books, she has to take out loan for tuition fees, and a student loan so she can live. Her parents aren't well off so they can't really help.

After seven years of study,and working ****ty jobs just to survive she qualifies as a doctor. She then has to work 70hr weeks on very modest pay. She now also has to start paying off her debt mountain of £30,000 . She can't afford to buy a house as she's single and can't afford a mortgage as the lowest prices houses in the area are £80,000 .

During all her study she paid tax and national insurance on her part-time jobs.

She'll make it in the end, she may be in her early thirties by them and it will have been hard but she take satisfaction, and as a doctor, as her wage increases she be contributing into society, not that she took much out of society while she was studying.

Girl 2: Thinks option 1 is far too hard, at 16 she gets pregnant, she is given a house and benefits, the benefits aren't a lot so she has a few more babies. By the time she's 22 she has 4 kids and a 4 bedroom council house. Soon she'll be able to buy that council house at a low rate. If she has a few more kids she'll get an even bigger house.

She's never worked, never made a contribution to the state. She's a net user of the "welfare" state and never put anything into it.

She reads this week that MPs are proposing that mothers should be "paid" a salary by the state to to stay at home and look after the kids.

Nice one she thinks, I'm nobodys fool!!!!!!!

[NitroNutter]

Originally Posted by allieyoung666

I wish they would leave Paul alone then as he will eventually lose is leg and then I will be his full time carer and I do not want to be one. If the man next door wants a mow a lawn and he has parkinsons thats his business. I know for a fact when I go onto the ward today there will be at least one druggy or one alcho there. They do not deserve anything as they are such a big drain on the system, it makes me laugh when they rant on and on, did we make them do that no!!!! As for my neighbour all he seems good for is inciting trouble in the street and even the asbo team have had enough!

uummm great you want euthenasia for druggies and alco's now ?

Many are that way because of things like PTSD created from war, to some over bullying at school, perhaps half them druggies you treat have actually been raped or other stuff like that but you condemn them ?

One of the biggest problems with the benefit system as it is is that to thwart the fraudsters they've made it so unwieldly, that it also makes it difficult for the people for whom it was intended to apply successfully.

The multi-page forms are enough to put off anyone with an ounce of self-respect, as the questions ask that you lay your entire life bare to them - no more privacy regards anything in your life.
Of course, this is no obstacle to people with no self-respect, and I think it is fair to say that the benefit scroungers are all in that category.

Then, even if you pass that hurdle, having filled out all the forms honestly you find that all sorts of things you wrote down now limit your entitlement - as the system tries to do it's best to give as little as possible.
Again, those that are not honest do better - must be those scroungers again.

After all of that, what you then maybe get it possibly not even enough.

And then people wonder why we get so angry at the people raking in thousands a month on benefit.

I have a child for whom we get a low rate of DLA, even though we should get more. And when I was made redundant a few years back and struggled to get back into work the amount of benefit I got each week was a small fraction of our grocery bill each week. Even though I'd always been employed and paid into the system throughout.

It certainly doesn't seem fair to me that the honest, hard-working among us should fare so badly when we hit a rough patch, yet the lazy liars get it all handed on a plate.

The solution is NOT limiting benefit or making it ever more difficult to obtain, but to make sure that those who do get it are not taking the p!ss.

[Scarlett]

We had problems when the wife was 'let go' from her previous job in July 02 (owner wanted to give the job to his son)

She applied for unemployment so that she could look for a proper job... but the DSS decided not to use last 2 years of tax (00-01 & 01-02 in which she'd been working full time and paying the tax and NI) but skipped a year back and put her into her last year of university (99-00 & 00-01). Hey presto, we've means tested you and have decided that you haven't paid enough NI contirbutions over the last 2 years (only worked part time* time at uni) you get nothing. Yep that right not a sausage!

We were offered an appeal but were told that we could not appeal over the period that they assesed the claim! To add insult to injury, she went to uni as a mature student and had 10 + years of paying tax and NI before she went for full time education.

This is the second time she's been refused unemployment, each time they seem to have a 'get out of giving people a bean' clause up their sleave.

Scarlett,

* oh yes she was paying TAX and NI on those part time earnings despite being a full time student...

[fragless]

Almost everyone knows at least someone who fiddles the benefit system, but this does not mean everyone does or will, 6 years ago I lost my job due to my wife's illness, constantly getting call's from the doctor or hospital to come for my wife, leaving work (was a debt collector) meant I did not do my job correctly.
I soon , I wasgot another job but again asked to leave before I was fired due to leaving work to collect my wife, or being called home.
My wife has a condition were she pass's out between 3 times (good day) to 12 and more times a day, which causes all kinds of condition's to top it all off she also suffers from cluster headaches, When I lost my Job I went to the unemployment office, they advised me to claim IS and DLA for my wife, which we did.


Does this make me a scrounger or sponger, think of the cost saved over the last 6 years with me being at home, it has resulted in a lot less doctor call outs, ambulance call outs, and visits to the hospital, that does not include the cost of home help which if I was working full time, that would be needed to assist my wife.

I'm now 34, and to be honest prefer the working life, it was a lot easier, Imagine being up 2 nights on the run cause your wife has been ill, getting a few hours sleep, then on the 3rd day looking forward to a good nights sleep, you go to bed, and a hour later your woken with your wife crying her eyes out curled up in to a ball, rocking.
We call the doctor out, who always gives her a shot of pain killer's, you go to bed, and think a few hours sleep, but no your wife hallucinates cause of the drugs and ends up waking the whole family shouting due to what she thinks she can see.

Its not easy looking after someone who is disabled, and the above is just 1 little story of many that many carrer's have.

Yet still I know of 2 people that were turned down for dla, and yet they were entitled to it, I too don't like people that falsely claim any benefit.

/rant over, sorry.

Originally Posted by fragless

Its not easy looking after someone who is disabled, and the above is just 1 little story of many that many carrer's have.

Yet still I know of 2 people that were turned down for dla, and yet they were entitled to it, I too don't like people that falsely claim any benefit.

/rant over, sorry.

Sounds like you have every right to rant! It is disgraceful that people who have to care for the disabled have such a hard time getting support.

Part of the problem with DLA is that they apply certain 'criteria' which are not apparent when you're filling in the forms. So you might be up&down all night looking after someone, but if you don't make it clear it was 5 times, rather than twice, or that each time you were up for 20 minutes, rather than 10, that would reduce your entitlement.
Now whichever it is, if you had to cope with that every day&night there comes a time you need extra support, and that costs money. So either you get DLA, or respite care or whatever, but it seems that many of us can have neither.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by NitroNutter

The real question is just what level of long term ill health deems a valid DLA claim.

The current system shows it as too easy for fakers but too hard for real needs. So how do you go about making it the other way round ? so those in need get the right benefits without the hassle while warding off these fakers who get it so easily.

With valid diagnosis it took me 3 years or so to get DLA, and that benefit is now in a large way is really just paying the interest on the debt I accrued supporting a wife 2 kids and the mortgage on the almost useless income support that you get today, for those 3 years.

I really fail to see how anyone can fake it unless they are two timing the system by working aswell. However you *cannot* survive on income support alone so the need to subsidise your income somehow is a nessecity. So some who are really ill are still forced to a life of crime by working while claiming as its the only way to get a livable income.

The current welfare state is not in anyway a safety net for those on long term ill health.
Even with DLA a disabled household with the average 2 children are not on any great amount of money from the state. Having more kids to top up the income really isnt an option.

There is a common belief that people getting DLA are commiting fraud if they work whilst they are claiming it. This is not the case and you are quite entitled to work whilst getting DLA. Of course the kind of work you do must be something that is possible to do with the disabilities you have that qualify you for DLA.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by ian@huth

There is a common belief that people getting DLA are commiting fraud if they work whilst they are claiming it. This is not the case and you are quite entitled to work whilst getting DLA. Of course the kind of work you do must be something that is possible to do with the disabilities you have that qualify you for DLA.

True, but if they declare they work (and IMO they should), the level of DLA awarded may be affected by their salary.

[Seti]

I hate threads like this because it makes me feel guilty. I had my own very succesful business before I was taken ill. At the time I was lugging a huge suitcase full of stuff I needed for work and clothes and such like up and down the country. Before I was running my own business I was Nursing. When I was first investigated I didnt' think that my condition was serious, although it stopped me from doing 90% of the things I used to fly through before. Soon I had to say good bye to my little business. When I applied for income support I was given £50 a week to live on as I was not considered ill by the government or DSS. I struggled on that for over 6 months. I kept a privately rented flat going, bought food, rescued a dog and continued my NTL subscriptions. It was hard and very stressful.

I applied for DLA before I got diagnosed and, suprisingly for me, I was awarded the highest rates of care and mobility and a severe disability premium. My Income support went up and in fact before I moved to a council house I was given a back dated claim of DLA for £1000. This helped me move. Yes, I am having an extension built by the ocuncil off a disability grant and yes i probably will try to buy my own house at the cheaper rate.

Some people would consider me well off. I get just over £200 a week to live on now. I've been on DLA for three years. Today I am buying the first pair of shoes I have had new for three years.

Recently I was invited for a medical. although the condition I suffer from, MS, is one of the prohibited conditions which mean I don't legally have to attend. I have filled three forms in telling the DSS this. Eventually they realised I wasn'f fraudelent and told me I didn't have to attend the medical. I already knew that.

I get "return to work" people ringing me up and asking me to attend interviews or loose my benefit. I attend and they can never find me a job that would allow me to sleep for a few hours in the day. Then they realise I am exempt from those meetings too. It's humiliating and embarrassing for me.

I work for the welfare section of my local MS branch and help people get their entitlements EVERY day. I am not ashamed to be doing this. I am also looking for a nice person to come and fix my laser printer (HINT HINT)

The reality is that we do not know the full story behind each claim or each disability. I suppose I oculd have become an alcoholic very easily. I mean I am a drain on society because thats how claiming makes you feel.

I wish I had £40,000 a year. Things like transport, paying for carers and getting around would be FAR easier. None of that is provided freely either btw.

I would hesitate to say my illness is all in my head. Although for a long time I did think it was. Many people going through any sort of aquired disability diagnosis do thinks that way. So I am a dredge on society and strangely becoming proud of it.

Sian.
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Scastle it isn't true that DLA amounts get affected by your work salary. You are given different rates, in some cases HIGHER, than you get when you aren't working. Oh and you can claim for transport costs etc.
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Oh and if anyone wants help filling in their DLA forms I will help you out. It's not easy getting it right first time. I can also help with appeals.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by scastle

True, but if they declare they work (and IMO they should), the level of DLA awarded may be affected by their salary.

DLA is not means tested and earnings don't lower the award.

Talking about means testing takes me back to the time I made my first claim for benefit. This was for income support and incapacity benefit which meant that the claim would be means tested. I filled in the forms and included in the section about capital that I held £7 in premium bonds. These were bought some 34 years previously when we first got married. The problem then became that they would not allow me income support as I could not send them the premium bonds. They wanted to see the actual bonds as proof that I had the amount of capital that I stated. It didn't matter that the £7 didn't make any difference to the amount I could claim. It took me quite a while to get duplicates and I actually found the original bonds before they arrived. It isn't as if the bonds themselves have any details on them regarding the holder.

The DWP are so insistant on claimants following all the rules strictly to the letter but completely disregard them as far as they themselves are concerned. You fill a form in that takes half a tree to get enough paper for and send it in only to wait weeks or months for a decision. Quite often they tell you not to contact them about the claim for at least seven weeks or more and even if you do after that period of time you still have to wait and wait and wait.

Seti - still can't give you a greeny. Sorry.

One point about DLA. A lot of miners who lost their jobs when pits closed were put on DLA to keep them off the dole queue figures. Politics huh?!

[allieyoung666]

I totally agree with you seti and you andy, just because you cannot see your disability or Pauls it is so hard to claim anything. I am still fighting even to this day to make sure that Paul has everything he needs and I know I will never get what we are totally entitlied to, this is why I get upset.
Did you know Alchos and druggies get supplemented benfits so that they can get their stuff? I only found this out a few months ago and I felt sick. We are going to see if Paul can have extra help soon as the leg collapsing thing happens 20-30 times a day now and is distressing for both of us. but I know what they will say err I dont think so. I was told that I was entitled to carers allowance when Paul was first discharged. So I packed in my sisters job and decided to look after him myself as I did not want anyone else to care for him. I had to buy essential equipment so that he could come home as the DSS would not give us anything and the OT's and physio Refused to let him come home before I did anything.
I asked for help for the equipment but was told you earn to much now go away. So applied for carers allowance waited 4 weeks and was told no. I was gutted as I could have took LOA but was told my grade would drop. So I have had to start all over again which is soul destroying as it took me 7yrs to get there and 4wks to lose it all. I have paid taxes, stamps etc since the age of 16 and then was told to get lost.
So you can probally understand my bitterness and anger when nobody wants to help you, but you are expected to help every one else who knows the system inside out, I do not think so!!!!!!!!!
I have had to start workin for an agency as I know for a fact Paul will lose that leg and I know he will need me and not our crappy welfare state.

Originally Posted by andyl

Seti - still can't give you a greeny. Sorry.

.........

Done for you oh and for me too

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by andyl

Seti - still can't give you a greeny. Sorry.

One point about DLA. A lot of miners who lost their jobs when pits closed were put on DLA to keep them off the dole queue figures. Politics huh?!

And some are still on the DLA here in South Wales, some left the closed mines in the 80's and haven't worked since.

It does seem very very unfair when some are able to lie and get benefits easily, and the needy find it difficult with many hurdles or face refusal.

As I have said before, the benefit system generally favours liars.