Iraqi prisoner abuse courts martial begin - pictures released

[Tezcatlipoca]

The court martial of the 1st of 4 British soldiers accused of physically & sexually abusing Iraqi prisoners in May 2003 has begun.

The alleged abuse came to light when one of the soldiers took film containing photos of it to a shop to be developed, & a staff member at the shop contacted police due to the nature of the images.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...re/4159481.stm



The trial of the alleged ring leader in the Abu Ghraib abuse is also now underway

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4155375.stm

[STONEISLAND]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4186581.stm

Got to say how let down I feel about are troops. Gutted and feel embarrassed about these disgusting pictures.

What makes them do this and we thought it was just the yanks.

I don't beleive this

I thought our troops had more sense?

[Paul K]

Originally Posted by skunk4u

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4186581.stm

Got to say how let down I feel about are troops. Gutted and feel embarrassed about these disgusting pictures.

What makes them do this and we thought it was just the yanks.

No doubt this isn't the first abuse of position by a member of any armed forces, the difference these days is that it gets reported and thanks to the unbelievable stupidity of the people doing it there is proof because they seem to enjoy taking photos of their "greatness"
The side effect of this behaviour by a relatively small percentage of people in Iraq is that it puts a lot of good men and women in an even more dangerous and difficult position. It also has a very damaging affect on the good will built up through hard work by people on both sides of the action

[STONEISLAND]

How the hell did they think they where going to get away with it? It happened only 6 months or so to the yanks. They must be just stupid to think they could take the pictures to a shop get them developed by a 'normal human' and for them not to report it. Its madness and now are reputation has gone down the pan. Gutted. Angry.

[punky]

We have been through the whole forceful interrogation arguments before so i'll skip that.

I think the Iraqis will realise that what the Brits and the US got caught for is nothing, nothing compared to what Saddam used to do to them. Or what Syria/Egypt still does. If only people really knew what Saddam got upto. People tend to avoid it, more often than not to justify their objection to war.

The protests to these photos would be more principled than anything else. The Iraqis (hopefully) should see the bigger picture.

Unfortunately there are several conflicting infulances on soldiers during any operational deployment. The armies need for soldiers to follow the 'chain of command', against the rules of the Gineva Convention, and an individual soldires need to guard against following ''illegal orders''. The fact that the base commander to his troops to ''go hard on looters'', does in my view, boarder on an illegal order. But again, the manner in which British soldiers are trained to obey their superiors orders, can at times over-ride the proper conduct of war and the treatment of prisoners.

Yes it is a disgrace that British soldiers physically abused detainees.

But if they where given an order to ''go hard'' on looters by their O.C. then I hope the Rupert in question gets what he deserves, and not just the ''Other Ranks''.

[AndrewJ]

The soldiers involved should be handed over to the Iraqies, this would prove and mean, when we say they are there own power, the people have commited crimes and should be treat under the law there.

Originally Posted by AndrewJames

The soldiers involved should be handed over to the Iraqies, this would prove and mean, when we say they are there own power, the people have commited crimes and should be treat under the law there.

While it may be a comendible thought, I doubt that this would be acceptable to many British citizens. Its rsther academic though, they are soldiers, and as such get tried under military law first.

[AndrewJ]

I see your point, but this would show the the iraqies that we accept them as a culture and as a country, and not as children or guests in there own land.

This was a crime on there soil, while we shall try them over it under our law, they should perhaps be also tried and sentences under there law. the stupidity and sheer brutal nature of the crime makes for such a punishment.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by AndrewJames

The soldiers involved should be handed over to the Iraqies

Did those soldiers kill any Iraqis? 'Cos I know what the Iraqis would do to them

Originally Posted by AndrewJames

I see your point, but this would show the the iraqies that we accept them as a culture and as a country, and not as children or guests in there own land. This was a crime on there soil, while we shall try them over it under our law, they should perhaps be also tried and sentences under there law. the stupidity and sheer brutal nature of the crime makes for such a punishment.

Whatever happened to the old principle of sub judice?

Whatever happened to the belief in innocent until proven guilty?

As serving soldiers they are facing right now a court martial, it is right that the Army do this but also whoever their supervising officer was must also be asked questions as well as the officer who ordered punishment against the ali babas.

Iraq, no way, Iraq has probably not sufficiently recovered to operate a judicial system and the result of your suggestion may mean their doom at the hands of an excited lynch mob. Remember, Arab TV stations are not quite like our own as public opinion may have been told all sorts of half truths.

It's a very sad affair, in war awful things can happen, soldiers undergo extraordinary levels of stress, but there is no excuse for treating prisoners badly.

Originally Posted by punky

We have been through the whole forceful interrogation arguments before so i'll skip that.

I think the Iraqis will realise that what the Brits and the US got caught for is nothing, nothing compared to what Saddam used to do to them. Or what Syria/Egypt still does. If only people really knew what Saddam got upto. People tend to avoid it, more often than not to justify their objection to war.

The protests to these photos would be more principled than anything else. The Iraqis (hopefully) should see the bigger picture.

My position on the war has been flip-floping all the time. First I supported it then a few months ago i was angry at the way it was enacted and dealt with but still supported the war, even though no WMD had been found (my support was never because of WMD).

What us and the americas did, in my view, was a good thing. With all the anti-american and anti-war feeling going around it is easy to forget what Saddam did. Torture & murder was a daily process in Saddams Iraq, although this still happens it will slow down and stop. Punky is right that people gloss over saddams record because it makes the issue much more complex and anti-blair/bush/american protesters (not all of them, mind you) do not want a complex issue. They want black and white. War=bad & No War = Good. As many of the protesters protested on the Human rights of the Iraqi's Saddams record was a sticking point in that record.

Dispite these pictures, it is important to remember that although people may think that they are too excessive, bent on money and oil and stupid. America is on the side of good, If you have the power to stop the murderious acts commited daily by Saddam then there is already a strong arguement to do so.

We all forget that the real 'bad guys' are the terrorists themselfs and not the Americans who want to remove the terrorists. People who seem to think that america is evil and the terrorists are not to blame for 9/11 and all the other acts they commited is frankly brainless. Saddam, similer dictators, and the terrorists are the real evil here and not the americans. We should remember this next time a anti-american rant kicks off
____________

Originally Posted by Gogogo

Whatever happened to the belief in innocent until proven guilty?

WHen ever someone posts a new item to do with a horrific act the sensible voices of Justice and Innocent until proven gulity are drowned out by the lynch mobs demanding that they are strung up by the nearest lamp post

[AndrewJ]

I am not saying I would hand them over to a mob.

What I am meaning sorry if I was not clear, was that we should try them over here or there under our law, and with a fair trial.

If this trial finds them guilty of cruelty to prisoners and abuse, then the sentencing should be done with a Iraqi courtroom and with iraqis there, along with some of the UK and USA, yes they still have there rights to a fair trial. I am just saying the sentencing should be done via Iraq, to prevent upset in the country of the USA/UK doing everything and leaving them out of the loops. This was a crime on there end.

Although in admittance of the above I am not sure if this falls under war crimes.

Originally Posted by AndrewJames

I am not saying I would hand them over to a mob.

What I am meaning sorry if I was not clear, was that we should try them over here or there under our law, and with a fair trial.

If this trial finds them guilty of cruelty to prisoners and abuse, then the sentencing should be done with a Iraqi courtroom and with iraqis there, along with some of the UK and USA, yes they still have there rights to a fair trial. I am just saying the sentencing should be done via Iraq, to prevent upset in the country of the USA/UK doing everything and leaving them out of the loops. This was a crime on there end.

Although in admittance of the above I am not sure if this falls under war crimes.

Sorry, I was not targetting you, or anyone else for that matter. I knew what you meant I also would agree but i do not think the Iraqi justice system is up to that yet