*ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by Hans Gruber

To me that's the reason they are introducing caps. If they cap the service before these services take off NTL can charge what they like once they start running their own services. People will be none the wiser that these kind of services previously existed freely and will just assume they'd have to pay NTL to use them.

We're coming to a point where the internet is being governed by the ISPs profits. It is in no way of any benefit for the customer.

What I don't get it why people, who claim to go nowhere near the limit, are so pro-cap. Surely it won't affect them one way or the other? Overloaded areas will still be overloaded, and other areas will still have plenty of bandwidth to go round. If you live in a bad area now, just wait till people are downloading at 3mbit.

Right, I don't go anywhere near the cap and I have no problems with my connection. If you accept the fact that 5% of customers use over 60% of bandwidth, as verified by members here that have the black and white stats in front of them, then that 5% is costing NTL more than the revenue they receive from them. This is not just in pure transit costs but also in providing infrastructure to minimise the effect of those heavy users on other customers. Capping the heavy users can reduce or eliminate this drain on profits and make more cash available to improve the network for everyone.

[DieDieMyDarling]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

Why wouldn't the average user do just that?

Any user, no matter how experienced or how little they use the internet can go to a site that may have been thrown up by a Google search, find the content interesting and download all the PDFs on the site. A new user may be browsing the net for the first time and come across a site containing thumbnails of pictures and decide to download the very large BMPs from there. Inexperience doesn't mean that you just browse sites with little content on them.

An inexperienced user wouldn't want 3mb, especially not for 37.99 a month. People who will justify that amount of money a month, will be people who want the speed for a reason. People who download a lot of big files, and wish to do it quicker. A few gamers might also do it, thinking (wrongly) it will give them better pings. Etc. I honestly think anyone who doesn't see through ntl's reasons for doing this, are fooling only themselves.

This is meant to be an advertising ploy. 'We have the fastest "national" speeds' - 'even our lowest teir customers are on 1mb' - 'Our cable tv service is very unreliable, our email servers work when they feel like it, our newsgroup servers are missing in action, and our transparent proxies will see to it that some of your favourite websites just can't be found'... oh hang on, they never use the truth in adverts, my bad.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by DieDieMyDarling

An inexperienced user wouldn't want 3mb, especially not for 37.99 a month. People who will justify that amount of money a month, will be people who want the speed for a reason. People who download a lot of big files, and wish to do it quicker. A few gamers might also do it, thinking (wrongly) it will give them better pings. Etc. I honestly think anyone who doesn't see through ntl's reasons for doing this, are fooling only themselves.

This is meant to be an advertising ploy. 'We have the fastest "national" speeds' - 'even our lowest teir customers are on 1mb' - 'Our cable tv service is very unreliable, our email servers work when they feel like it, our newsgroup servers are missing in action, and our transparent proxies will see to it that some of your favourite websites just can't be found'... oh hang on, they never use the truth in adverts, my bad.

You show quite a lack of understanding of human nature with those statements.

Some people want the biggest and fastest no matter what the cost or what their usage is like. £37.99 is a lot of money to some people and small change to others. Experience has nothing at all to do with the speeds people want, the amount that they are willing to pay or the volume that they download. Both experienced users and newbies download small files and very big files. They both can use well below the caps or well above them.

A few gamers know the pings are no better but use 3Mb because of the upload speed

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

pipex own nildram but they still operate as different isp's, pipx offer unmetered bandwidth wannadoo doesnt.

I am into IT as you said but I am not wrong about the newbie argument, most people I speak to havent got a clue that ntl even have a cap and they certianly wouldnt know what I was on about if I said what would you do if you had a 5 gig cap. There are also other things such as people downloading at work because their work has a nice connection and then not downloading at home, but not everyone is lucky enough to be in that position. I would like someone to show me a website that needs a 3mbit connection and is quite slow on a 750kbit connection. Prove me wrong please.

How about not one website, but opening 7 at once? I use firefox and use group tab bookmarks, some total 7 websites, Im pretty sure a 3Mb connection would totally outstrip a 750k one at opening them.

However, you are quite right about most people not knowing about NTL's "cap", mainly because they didnt check the agreement they signed. (either by registering online or physically signing up). That is not NTL's fault and it is mentioned somewhere in ntlworld.com, I think :P

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by DieDieMyDarling

An inexperienced user wouldn't want 3mb, especially not for 37.99 a month. People who will justify that amount of money a month, will be people who want the speed for a reason. People who download a lot of big files, and wish to do it quicker. A few gamers might also do it, thinking (wrongly) it will give them better pings. Etc. I honestly think anyone who doesn't see through ntl's reasons for doing this, are fooling only themselves.

This is meant to be an advertising ploy. 'We have the fastest "national" speeds' - 'even our lowest teir customers are on 1mb' - 'Our cable tv service is very unreliable, our email servers work when they feel like it, our newsgroup servers are missing in action, and our transparent proxies will see to it that some of your favourite websites just can't be found'... oh hang on, they never use the truth in adverts, my bad.

Yes, Like BT dont tell people about their 1GB a month cap in their "fast broadband" adverts, Like AOL doesnt tell you that there is an AUP (and thus a form of cap) On their "unlimited" service, Like Pipex dont tell you that their support sucks, their microfilters manage to randomly bugger up the phone or adsl modem (Friends personal experience), Like bulldogs advertising didnt make it clear that their 4Mb was available to 10 people, like BMW didnt tell people that their fuel tanks could explode....may I go on?

Advertising is well, supposed to lure people in, you wouldnt see an atkins diet ad saying "well weight watches is proven to be easier to stick to, and more effective" would you? the point of advertising is to get people interested, not to scare people off

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Stop It

Advertising is well, supposed to lure people in, you wouldnt see an atkins diet ad saying "well weight watches is proven to be easier to stick to, and more effective" would you? the point of advertising is to get people interested, not to scare people off

You forgot to mention all those credit ads that don't mention that although they do lower your monthly payments, you end up with a loan term so long your grandchildren's grandchildren are still paying it off. Or some where you use your house as collateral, end up paying 300% interest, losing your house, family, friends and the use of your knees and/or legs. And still having to pay back 300% more than you took out.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Stop It

Yes, Like BT dont tell people about their 1GB a month cap in their "fast broadband" adverts

They do-it says "usage limits apply" at the end of the radio ads.

Originally Posted by Stop It

Like AOL doesnt tell you that there is an AUP (and thus a form of cap) On their "unlimited" service,

There is no "cap" as such, but if what you're doing affects others they will act on it, that's not unreasonable.

Originally Posted by Stop It

Like Pipex dont tell you that their support sucks

It doesn't in my experience.

Originally Posted by Stop It

their microfilters manage to randomly bugger up the phone or adsl modem (Friends personal experience)

They don't.

Originally Posted by Stop It

Like bulldogs advertising didnt make it clear that their 4Mb was available to 10 people

It was clearly advertised as a service being offered to those living in Central London (a few more than 10 methinks)

Originally Posted by Stop It

like BMW didnt tell people that their fuel tanks could explode....

Not sure what you're referring to here, but you are making very sweeping & generic comments.

Originally Posted by Stop It

may I go on?

Please do.

Originally Posted by Stop It

Advertising is well, supposed to lure people in, you wouldnt see an atkins diet ad saying "well weight watches is proven to be easier to stick to, and more effective" would you? the point of advertising is to get people interested, not to scare people off

Advertising something is one thing, but changing the AUP for it late on a Friday afternoon without actively telling your customers is another.

[DieDieMyDarling]

BT DID email it's customers informing them of the changes, i know a few people on BT, and they were all emailed and told that they were introducing caps in 2005, the email also informed them if they had anything to worry about, based on their past use.

Ntl have never emailed me informing me of caps, in fact they've never even replied to my emails, some of which were very important issues.

Most big companies have problems, and you can't please all of the people all of the time, but out of all the big companies i've ever been with, Ntl are by FAR the worst. The only reason i stay with them, is as people have mentioned, the hassle of changing the phones over. But, once the cap comes in, i'm taking my £100+ a month account to BT, and my broadband to AOL. Hopefully a lot of other people, who've seen the problems, will do the same, and maybe for once, ntl will actually start caring.

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by Neil

They do-it says "usage limits apply" at the end of the radio ads.

<------SO quickly it hurts, Its misleading

Originally Posted by Neil

There is no "cap" as such, but if what you're doing affects others they will act on it, that's not unreasonable.

<---You mean like on ntl? ah yes but when ntl do that its evil isnt it...

Originally Posted by Neil

It doesn't in my experience.

EXACTLY!!!! Ive seen the fallout of the service of pipex, and how inadaquate is was.

Originally Posted by Neil

They don't.

Then explain why my freind cant use his, with it in the adsl modem or the phone randomly doesnt work, and this is the reason for the support nightmare, because they wont accept the problem.

Originally Posted by Neil

It was clearly advertised as a service being offered to those living in Central London (a few more than 10 methinks)

Not all, and certainly not in the ads I heard.

Originally Posted by Neil

Not sure what you're referring to here, but you are making very sweeping & generic comments.

BMW had a known issue where the fuel tanks of the first batch of new minis had a flaw where it wasnt earthed properly, thus a spark could cause an exlposion when being filled with petrol, it was rare, but possible, and there was a recall on it.

Originally Posted by Neil

Please do.

J

Originally Posted by Neil

Advertising something is one thing, but changing the AUP for it late on a Friday afternoon without actively telling your customers is another.

Ah, but i wasnt talking about that, was i?

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Stop It

<------SO quickly it hurts, Its misleading

But that's totally different from your original statement that they don't mention it at all.

Originally Posted by Stop It

<---You mean like on ntl? ah yes but when ntl do that its evil isnt it...

There's a big difference between actively advertising a capped service, & changing your AUP late on a Friday night & not telling anyone.

Originally Posted by Stop It

EXACTLY!!!! Ive seen the fallout of the service of pipex, and how inadaquate is was.

"Seen it" where & how??

Originally Posted by Stop It

Then explain why my freind cant use his, with it in the adsl modem or the phone randomly doesnt work, and this is the reason for the support nightmare, because they wont accept the problem.

A faulty adaptor maybe?

Originally Posted by Stop It

Not all, and certainly not in the ads I heard.

Again, different from your original statement. Central London is a small area, & having been involved with Bulldog at that point, I remember clearly how the adverts were shown, & they specificall mentioned Central London, so for someone living in Birmingham (for example) it would be pointless applying.

Originally Posted by Stop It

BMW had a known issue where the fuel tanks of the first batch of new minis had a flaw where it wasnt earthed properly, thus a spark could cause an exlposion when being filled with petrol, it was rare, but possible, and there was a recall on it.

So they made a product with a fault & recalled it-what's the problem there?

Originally Posted by Stop It

Ah, but i wasnt talking about that, was i?

Then why post in a thread about the ntl cap?

[Mauldor]

Im sure its been mentioned 5000 times but after experiences family and friends ref the "internet" - here is how they work !!!

Most people I know are new to both computers and the internet - they look at whats on offer and they look at ONE thing - the price - they would not even know what the word CAP meant, never mind Useage Restrictions. Its hard for someone who is new to all of this to understand how much they would use over a month etc as its all computer Jargon - Megabytes, GigaBytes - Wahhh

9/10 people stick with the biggest/most advertised thing out there - such as BT, AOL, Freeserve, NTL and Telewest. Here is a mad example of my very own sister and tell me shes not insane. She had a BT line installed and also a Telewest phone line. She paid for the dial up service and over all a month, came to quite a bit let me tell you.

I could not see her for example going for a 3mbit line as she would be happy with either BT (adsl) or NTL/Telewest (300, soon to be 1mbit). Even my Mate who plays online games went for the Cheapest BT Lock you in for 12 months deal even though there was a CAP which again he never understood, after all he does not download does he !!!

This is another area though, perception - if the Average user thinks its only clocks up when they DOWNLOAD things when in reality anything he does online is adding up the monthly figure - not saying the advertising is not saying this, just people will switch off to the things they dont want to hear.

Ive said this once and I shall say this again - NTL should really think about 3 diff type of users, LITE, Home and Power and gear the products around that, having a CAP across the board is bad, I dont know of any other company that does this, if you do, post and let me know

[PC_Arcade]

Originally Posted by Stop It

However, you are quite right about most people not knowing about NTL's "cap", mainly because they didnt check the agreement they signed. (either by registering online or physically signing up). That is not NTL's fault and it is mentioned somewhere in ntlworld.com, I think :P

What about those who did read (or at least skim through) the agreement I signed and was aware of the AUP AT THE TIME THEY SIGNED (when there was no "cap"), which NTL then changed from under us, last thing on a friday then buggered off home in order to avoid the flak??

That IS NTL's fault.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Mauldor

Ive said this once and I shall say this again - NTL should really think about 3 diff type of users, LITE, Home and Power and gear the products around that, having a CAP across the board is bad, I dont know of any other company that does this, if you do, post and let me know

It comes down to something I have been banging on about for ages when it comes to ntl.....

Choice (or lack of it where ntl are concerned)

Originally Posted by PC_Arcade

What about those who did read (or at least skim through) the agreement I signed and was aware of the AUP AT THE TIME THEY SIGNED (when there was no "cap"), which NTL then changed from under us, last thing on a friday then buggered off home in order to avoid the flak??

That IS NTL's fault.

What cap? So far as I'm aware, nobody who signed up with NTL before the 'cap' was introduced has ever been sent a letter accusing them of exceeding it. This is possibly because they did not announce it properly to existing customers in accordance with the contract, so it's not enforceable.

[PC_Arcade]

Originally Posted by Chris T

What cap? So far as I'm aware, nobody who signed up with NTL before the 'cap' was introduced has ever been sent a letter accusing them of exceeding it. This is possibly because they did not announce it properly to existing customers in accordance with the contract, so it's not enforceable.

Hence the reason I put "cap" in inverted comma's.

But what people seem to overlook is that a lot of people signed up for a service with no specific usage limits in the T&C's or the AUP at the time, reading the contract they signed, would not do them any good whatsoever in that case (which was answering the post I quoted).

I've never maintained that the cap was actively enforced at the moment. If NTL can't enforce it due to the sneaky and underhand way it was introduced, then that's their problem.