Russia has invaded Ukraine

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by thenry

I'll be honest I don't understand all that. Countries are cooperating with eachother fine. There's no need for the freeloading.

What are you on about? The freeloading has been acknowledged by the European countries and as been stopped as evidenced by their defence budget increases.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

What are you on about? The freeloading has been acknowledged by the European countries and as been stopped as evidenced by their defence budget increases.

The freeloading is debatable anyway, despite what donny would have us believe it suited Anerica to have them freeloading, to a degree anyway, America's foreign policy interests were well served by the freeloading and there were no complaints when Europe went to war on America's behalf in Afghanistan, they were better served then than now at any rate, great news donny no ones freeloading anymore but America has no allies and its arms industry would be on its arse if it wasn't so busy restocking after a stupid war that didn't need fighting, is it really any wonder how this berk managed to bankrupt 7 casinos, the man is incapable of any rationale long term thinking, he is like a child

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

The freeloading is debatable anyway, despite what donny would have us believe it suited Anerica to have them freeloading, to a degree anyway, America's foreign policy interests were well served by the freeloading and there were no complaints when Europe went to war on America's behalf in Afghanistan, they were better served then than now at any rate, great news donny no ones freeloading anymore but America has no allies and its arms industry would be on its arse if it wasn't so busy restocking after a stupid war that didn't need fighting, is it really any wonder how this berk managed to bankrupt 7 casinos, the man is incapable of any rationale long term thinking, he is like a child

All fair points.

[Carth]

Don't worry, Trump knows what he's doing . . . right up until he wakes and his brain cogs start slipping

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

The freeloading is debatable anyway, despite what donny would have us believe it suited Anerica to have them freeloading, to a degree anyway, America's foreign policy interests were well served by the freeloading and there were no complaints when Europe went to war on America's behalf in Afghanistan, they were better served then than now at any rate, great news donny no ones freeloading anymore but America has no allies and its arms industry would be on its arse if it wasn't so busy restocking after a stupid war that didn't need fighting, is it really any wonder how this berk managed to bankrupt 7 casinos, the man is incapable of any rationale long term thinking, he is like a child

Yes, no such thing as a free lunch or airbase.

Originally Posted by thenry

I'll be honest I don't understand all that. Countries are cooperating with eachother fine. There's no need for the freeloading.

Once again, it’s not freeloading…

The USA has bases (and lots and lots of military supplies) in Europe because when they decide to attack/defend Countries in the Middle East, it’s cheaper and quicker for them to ship the ammo, parts, & people from Europe to their bases in the Middle East than it would be to ship them from various bases in the USA (especially the bases in Middle/Western USA).

For instance, Ramstein (in Germany) to Kuwait is around 2,400 miles, and would take around 6 hours flight time; Joint Base Langley–Eustis (in Virginia, USA East Coast) to Kuwait is 6,500 miles, and would take 12-15 hours flight time, and would require refuelling stops, so would probably take longer…

When you’re moving tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of tons of equipment, this could make the difference between winning or losing a conflict.

The US bases in Europe and the Middle East are their equivalent of Amazon Distribution Centres in the UK - it’s quicker and more cost-effective to have the goods nearer where they are needed.

LT. COL. GEORGE C. THORPE, USMC

"Strategy and tactics provide the scheme for military operations; logistics the means therefore

Or to put it another way, firepower & technology win battles, but logistics and supply lines win wars.

It’s no good having boots on the ground, if you can’t get ammo and food to them, as the Germans found out with Operation Barbarossa…

Anyway, speaking of supplies (and disruption thereof)

https://united24media.com/war-in-ukr...o-russia-20154

Key Ufa Refineries Hit After Ukrainian Drones Fly 870 Miles Into Russia

Ukrainian drones struck oil refineries in the Russian city of Ufa, according to footage published by the OSINT community Exilenova+ on June 25.

Videos filmed by residents captured the moments of impact, as well as drones flying over the city. The UAVs seen in the footage appear similar to Ukraine’s long-range Liutyi drones.

According to available information, two of the three oil refineries located in Ufa were hit.

The Ufa refining complex is located roughly 870 miles, or about 1,400 kilometers, from Ukraine’s state border. To reach the targets, the drones would have had to cover approximately that distance.

Ufa, the capital of Russia’s Bashkortostan region, is home to one of the country’s largest and most strategically important oil refining clusters. The complex consists of three major refineries integrated into a single technological system and controlled by Bashneft, a subsidiary of Rosneft.

The combined processing capacity of the Ufa refinery hub exceeds 22 million tons of oil per year, making it a major part of Russia’s overall refining capacity and an important fuel supply center.

[Carth]

I see Zelensky will be doing the rounds with the begging bowl again . .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9d227e5zj6o

Zelensky's call for help rings with extra intensity after Russian missiles rained down on the Ukrainian capital twice in less than a week, crashing into blocks of flats and killing more than 50 civilians.

and . . .

The latest strikes on Ukraine come as it has been stepping up its own long-range drone attacks against Russia, hitting oil refineries and military targets there and causing significant fuel shortages and power cuts.

Both sides still playing tit for tat then, someone needs to knock their heads together

[thenry]

Oh good

Pretty sure no one ever described the Allies invasion of Europe as "tit for tat"...

It's not easy to "knock their heads together" if one side (Russia) has said they will only stop attacking if Ukraine surrender...

If Russia stop fighting, the war is over.
If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine is over.

[thenry]

The latter

[Carth]

Do you think the UK will send them cash and/or missiles for the defense of Ukraine?

Considering the UK has just 'pledged/promised/still debating' spending blah blah £millions to increase the safety of the UK, at the 'pledged/promised/still debating' cost of 'cutting/withdrawing/reducing' some blah blah services

Originally Posted by Carth

Do you think the UK will send them cash and/or missiles for the defense of Ukraine?

Considering the UK has just 'pledged/promised/still debating' spending blah blah £millions to increase the safety of the UK, at the 'pledged/promised/still debating' cost of 'cutting/withdrawing/reducing' some blah blah services

Yes, the UK is continuing to support Ukraine with hardware as well as training. It’s pretty obvious special forces were in country training them in insurgency prior to the conflict and had at least something to do with Ukraine’s wildly successful push back against Russia in 2022.

Russia is an imperial state which is fighting to hold what it has and to regain what it feels entitled to. That began with skirmishes in Chechnya and Georgia but Ukraine is the real proof of concept. Were Russia able to reassimilate Ukraine it would regather its strength and then go after the Baltics, then Poland, and somewhere along the way would likely use constitutional shenanigans to absorb Belarus too. The aim is for Russia to reassert the maximum extent of its historic influence, which it enjoyed through the USSR between WW2 and the collapse of the Berlin Wall in 1939.

This is not a war of choice between squabbling siblings with wrong on both sides. Such a view is devoid of any attempt to bother understanding what’s happening, akin to a bored father scolding both children for spoiling his peace because he can’t be bothered putting his newspaper down long enough to understand what’s actually happening.

As Hugh said, if Russia stops, the war ends. If Ukraine stops, Ukraine ends. Even a viable ceasefire on the current line of contact favours Russia in the long term. Russia has never respected any treaty, ever, for any length of time. The assault to take Kyiv would simply be scheduled for some time next decade once Russia has regenerated its forces.

The UK and others must support Ukraine in order to prevent that happening and, selfishly, to stop Russia’s imperial project from creeping closer to their own borders.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Chris

Yes, the UK is continuing to support Ukraine with hardware as well as training. It’s pretty obvious special forces were in country training them in insurgency prior to the conflict and had at least something to do with Ukraine’s wildly successful push back against Russia in 2022.

Russia is an imperial state which is fighting to hold what it has and to regain what it feels entitled to. That began with skirmishes in Chechnya and Georgia but Ukraine is the real proof of concept. Were Russia able to reassimilate Ukraine it would regather its strength and then go after the Baltics, then Poland, and somewhere along the way would likely use constitutional shenanigans to absorb Belarus too. The aim is for Russia to reassert the maximum extent of its historic influence, which it enjoyed through the USSR between WW2 and the collapse of the Berlin Wall in 1939.

This is not a war of choice between squabbling siblings with wrong on both sides. Such a view is devoid of any attempt to bother understanding what’s happening, akin to a bored father scolding both children for spoiling his peace because he can’t be bothered putting his newspaper down long enough to understand what’s actually happening.

As Hugh said, if Russia stops, the war ends. If Ukraine stops, Ukraine ends. Even a viable ceasefire on the current line of contact favours Russia in the long term. Russia has never respected any treaty, ever, for any length of time. The assault to take Kyiv would simply be scheduled for some time next decade once Russia has regenerated its forces.

The UK and others must support Ukraine in order to prevent that happening and, selfishly, to stop Russia’s imperial project from creeping closer to their own borders.

I think Chris you'll find the Berlin wall collapsed in 1989 not 1939.