Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

That might be slightly true because of the disgusting Israeli government. But terrorise from neighbours within Israeli borders, not to mention the 1200, provides the rest of the truth.

However despicable the Israeli government may be, they need to destroy Hamas.

Also, don’t forget how that has spread in one form or another to the UK, including all jihadi type attacks/bombings/murders.


---------- Post added at 11:24 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------



The appropriate degree of balance is missing from your comments. And please don’t come back and say that 1200 vs alleged 50,000 is disproportionate; all Hamas has to to do is release the hostages that they should never have taken in the first place.

What happens to Gaza if all the hostages are released?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

That might be slightly true because of the disgusting Israeli government. But terrorise from neighbours within Israeli borders, not to mention the 1200, provides the rest of the truth.

However despicable the Israeli government may be, they need to destroy Hamas.

Also, don’t forget how that has spread in one form or another to the UK, including all jihadi type attacks/bombings/murders.


---------- Post added at 11:24 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------



The appropriate degree of balance is missing from your comments. And please don’t come back and say that 1200 vs alleged 50,000 is disproportionate; all Hamas has to to do is release the hostages that they should never have taken in the first place.

It’s not “slightly true” - by any measure statistically the average Israeli can go about their day to day activities in safety today. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Palestinians cannot. Nor can they reliably access the services any civilised country would consider essential - like food, employment, education or healthcare.

To imply the deaths of 1200 Israelis is somehow equivalent is to tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths is once again to significantly downplay the Palestinian right to life.

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s not “slightly true” - by any measure statistically the average Israeli can go about their day to day activities in safety today. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Palestinians cannot. Nor can they reliably access the services any civilised country would consider essential - like food, employment, education or healthcare.

To imply the deaths of 1200 Israelis is somehow equivalent is to tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths is once again to significantly downplay the Palestinian right to life.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The appropriate degree of balance is missing from your comments. And please don’t come back and say that 1200 vs alleged 50,000 is disproportionate; all Hamas has to to do is release the hostages that they should never have taken in the first place.

Releasing the Israeli hostages, which I would like to see happen, is not going to make the Israeli response proportionate.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s not “slightly true” - by any measure statistically the average Israeli can go about their day to day activities in safety today. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Palestinians cannot. Nor can they reliably access the services any civilised country would consider essential - like food, employment, education or healthcare.

To imply the deaths of 1200 Israelis is somehow equivalent is to tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths is once again to significantly downplay the Palestinian right to life.

It's convenient for you to lump Gaza into Palestine for the purposes of death equivalences. The Palestinian (West Bank) situation is not the same. The Palestinians of the West Bank are not lobbing rockets into Israel.

Had Hamas not murdered 1200 Israelis, nor kidnapped 200+ people, nor then holding them from release, Gazan deaths would have been reduced/avoided.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It's convenient for you to lump Gaza into Palestine for the purposes of death equivalences. The Palestinian (West Bank) situation is not the same. The Palestinians of the West Bank are not lobbing rockets into Israel.

Had Hamas not murdered 1200 Israelis, nor kidnapped 200+ people, nor then holding them from release, Gazan deaths would have been reduced/avoided.

There’s nothing really convenient for me about pointing out slam dunk war crimes and then responding to people that justify it as “oppsie” at best and worthwhile collective punishment at worst.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

There’s nothing really convenient for me about pointing out slam dunk war crimes and then responding to people that justify it as “oppsie” at best and worthwhile collective punishment at worst.

And Hamas - what have you got to say abouth them?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

And Hamas - what have you got to say abouth them?

Why do we keep circling back to this ? Not one person has sympathised or approved the actions of Hamas to my knowledge in this thread. To my knowledge everyone has condemned them.

It’s not unreasonable nor unjust to question the actions of the IDF without needing to repeatedly denounce Hamas’s horrific actions.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Why do we keep circling back to this ? Not one person has sympathised or approved the actions of Hamas to my knowledge in this thread. To my knowledge everyone has condemned them.

It’s not unreasonable nor unjust to question the actions of the IDF without needing to repeatedly denounce Hamas’s horrific actions.

No one here supports Hamas or what they did on October 7th but that doesn't seem to stop people equating criticism of Israel and their army as support for hamas or antisemitism, it's pathetic and reminds me why I quit this thread long ago

Originally Posted by papa smurf

What happens to Gaza if all the hostages are released?

Someone saw fit not to answer, wonder why

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

And Hamas - what have you got to say abouth them?

At this point absolutely nothing, mainly to be obtuse in response to your ludicrous position that Israel can only be criticised once someone has criticised Hamas on every single occasion.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

At this point absolutely nothing, mainly to be obtuse in response to your ludicrous position that Israel can only be criticised once someone has criticised Hamas on every single occasion.

It really reminds me of what some may describe as woke organisations in New Zealand who place an acknowledgment on their website to talk about the traditional owners of the land they are based on.

It seems some people would like us to preface every comment about Israeli actions with something like "Before discussing recent atrocities, I acknowledges that Hamas brutally murdered 1,200 innocent Israel citizens on 7 October 2023 and that they are a terrorist organisation who started it first!"

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Why do we keep circling back to this ? Not one person has sympathised or approved the actions of Hamas to my knowledge in this thread. To my knowledge everyone has condemned them.

It’s not unreasonable nor unjust to question the actions of the IDF without needing to repeatedly denounce Hamas’s horrific actions.

Your sentence should properly have read:

It is reasonable and just to question the actions of the IDF whilst at the same time denouncing Hamas’s horrific actions.

Pray answer this: How is Hamas to be eliminated? Or don't you think it should be eliminated?

[jfman]

Not by committing borderline war crimes? If that’s not possible then containment and mitigation are reasonable expectations to have for now without anyone being condemned as “not thinking Hamas should be eliminated”.

Whether elimination is realistic as you destroy the livelihoods of everyone in Gaza and thereby become a poster for signing up is another question avoided by the other side. Note: in the real world while it’s undesirable for people to join terrorist organisations people routinely do, for reasons they perceive as legitimate. Whether you or I think they are legitimate reasons or not is irrelevant to the reality.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Your sentence should properly have read:

It is reasonable and just to question the actions of the IDF whilst at the same time denouncing Hamas’s horrific actions.

Pray answer this: How is Hamas to be eliminated? Or don't you think it should be eliminated?

Firstly thank you for correcting my statement I’m sure it was entirely necessary and that without your correction people wouldn’t have understood my point

1. Yes Hamas should be eliminated HOWEVER the Israeli government/IDF should not and do not have the right to do this by any means necessary.
2. Do you think this action will eradicate Hamas? All I see is the potential next generation of Hamas terrorists or whatever they rebrand themselves

Like I said, war has rules

At some point in the future the world’s memory of what happened to the Jewish people will fade & military support and assistance will end. At that point well who knows what will happen

[vm_tech]

Creation of the "Palestinian people" - the most successful secret operation of the
KGB in the Middle East by Samuel Greenberg is an interesting book. Very short only around 60 pages long available on Kindle Unlimited