Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Not what Israel has done. When you have condemned terrorists for killing 100's of civilians, going on to kill tens of 1000's of civilians, murdering journalists and emergency workers is not a good look.

When you have large numbers of the Israeli population supporting what the IDF is doing and you have the USA actively supporting them plus suppressing any dissent then what controls remain in place? The IDF can literally commit any crime with impunity.

For example,

Majority of Israelis support Trump's Gaza plan, relocation of Palestinians in exclusive 'Post' poll



"'from river to sea" - where have I heard that saying before?

Disregarding Trump and his ridiculous behaviour, if Hamas had released the cruelly taken hostages, very few Gazan civilians would have died. As I said before, it's on Hamas.

Btw, 'From the river to the sea' says it all. The one Middle East democracy is surrounded by enemies who would wish all Israelis dead.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Disregarding Trump and his ridiculous behaviour, if Hamas had released the cruelly taken hostages, very few Gazan civilians would have died. As I said before, it's on Hamas.

Btw, 'From the river to the sea' says it all. The one Middle East democracy is surrounded by enemies who would wish all Israelis dead.

There’s no evidence that Israel wouldn’t have continued its borderline genocidal campaign even if Hamas had released the hostages. The aim is to “eliminate Hamas”; with such a broad definition as to include the destruction of schools, mosques, churches, universities, hospitals, energy infrastructure and turning off the water supply.

It’s a simplistic retort to absolve Israel from blame - nothing more and nothing less.

Even if Israel had stated that as their position - why would anyone trust them not to move the goalposts? Just as we went from “we don’t bomb hospitals” to “we do bomb hospitals”, and “we don’t summarily execute medical workers” to “well, now that there’s a video, maybe we made mistakes”.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Disregarding Trump and his ridiculous behaviour, if Hamas had released the cruelly taken hostages, very few Gazan civilians would have died. As I said before, it's on Hamas.

Btw, 'From the river to the sea' says it all. The one Middle East democracy is surrounded by enemies who would wish all Israelis dead.

The irony. The 'phrase From the river to the sea' does indeed say it all. From the Likud original party charter:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...he-likud-party

The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

This gives you some context as to what motivates the current Israeli administrations mindset.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

There’s no evidence that Israel wouldn’t have continued its borderline genocidal campaign even if Hamas had released the hostages. The aim is to “eliminate Hamas”; with such a broad definition as to include the destruction of schools, mosques, churches, universities, hospitals, energy infrastructure and turning off the water supply.

It’s a simplistic retort to absolve Israel from blame - nothing more and nothing less.

Even if Israel had stated that as their position - why would anyone trust them not to move the goalposts? Just as we went from “we don’t bomb hospitals” to “we do bomb hospitals”, and “we don’t summarily execute medical workers” to “well, now that there’s a video, maybe we made mistakes”.

It's still on Hamas for their October 2023 atrocity. And how else would Israel eliminate Hamas (a necessity imo) other than by military action.

Furthermore, nobody has been able to verify the civilian deaths. Make no mistake, it is sad that civilians (who voted for Hamas on an anti-Israel ticket) have died. But how, other than military action, can Hamas be removed/neutralised.


---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

The irony. The 'phrase From the river to the sea' does indeed say it all. From the Likud original party charter:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...he-likud-party



This gives you some context as to what motivates the current Israeli administrations mindset.

The existing Israeli government are bad eggs; I think we all agree on that. But even they had to deal with the October 2023 Hamas atrocity.

'From the river to the sea' is the expression used on London's streets promoting the extinction of Israel.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It's still on Hamas for their October 2023 atrocity. And how else would Israel eliminate Hamas (a necessity imo) other than by military action.

Furthermore, nobody has been able to verify the civilian deaths. Make no mistake, it is sad that civilians (who voted for Hamas on an anti-Israel ticket) have died. But how, other than military action, can Hamas be removed/neutralised.


---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 ----------



The existing Israeli government are bad eggs; I think we all agree on that. But even they had to deal with the October 2023 Hamas atrocity.

'From the river to the sea' is the expression used on London's streets promoting the extinction of Israel.

We did the 2006 Palestinian election during your sabbatical it didn’t have any credibility then and it doesn’t now.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

We did the 2006 Palestinian election during your sabbatical it didn’t have any credibility then and it doesn’t now.

Says you. A pure distraction. Hamas are worse eggs than the Israeli government.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Not what Israel has done. When you have condemned terrorists for killing 100's of civilians, going on to kill tens of 1000's of civilians, murdering journalists and emergency workers is not a good look.

When you have large numbers of the Israeli population supporting what the IDF is doing and you have the USA actively supporting them plus suppressing any dissent then what controls remain in place? The IDF can literally commit any crime with impunity.

For example,

Majority of Israelis support Trump's Gaza plan, relocation of Palestinians in exclusive 'Post' poll



"'from river to sea" - where have I heard that saying before?

Sounds exactly like Russia is doing in Ukraine but I don't hear about you or any others complainig about that.

[Sephiroth]

The Russian government isn't a Jewish government.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Sounds exactly like Russia is doing in Ukraine but I don't hear about you or any others complainig about that.

Apart from being an utterly deranged response - you clearly think these things are bad except for when it’s happening to Palestinians - Ian sits just outside the top 10 posters in the Ukraine thread. One of their most steadfast supporters on the forum, generally posting to condemn Russia, Trump, or Europe in the context of not doing enough for the Ukrainian cause.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by 45rpm

OK, so what would you have done in response?

I probably wouldn't have let my army get away with killing our own hostages that we claim we are doing this for, nor would I have allowed shooting of people clearly surrendering to brushed over either, nor would I have allowed aid workers to be murdered or ignored the backlash from the world when it was non Palestinian aid workers being murdered and if I was waging a righteous operation I wouldn't be targetting journalists and I'd allow foreign journalists in to so my claims that the army is most virtuous could be verified, I'd also make my rules of engagement considerably different so dozens of civilians aren't killed to get one terrorist and what I most certainly wouldn't have done in the very first place is prop hamas up so I didn't have to deal with a Palestinian authority bent on nationhood and I'd have dropped the failed Dahyia doctrine that just makes hatred for my nation worse.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Furthermore, nobody has been able to verify the civilian deaths. Make no mistake, it is sad that civilians (who voted for Hamas on an anti-Israel ticket) have died. But how, other than military action, can Hamas be removed/neutralised.

The vast, vast majority killed have been women and children are you really trying to claim they're terrorists? Oh and hamas seized power, they weren't elected as such and iirc a majority of people there weren't old enough to vote in 2006 but yeah blame them

Originally Posted by pip08456

Sounds exactly like Russia is doing in Ukraine but I don't hear about you or any others complainig about that.

I think pretty much everyone spoke in support of Ukraine and complained about Russia, we also complained about Hamas on October 7th

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The Russian government isn't a Jewish government.

And here ends my participation, if the bar for a nations behaviour is set by a rogue state like Russia its not a conversation worth having, nor is participating in the Israeli government's favourite get out of jail free card which is by claiming if their army and government are held to different standards to others it's in someway antisemitic, unless you want crushing sanctions to be brought on Israel and for them to be treated like an international pariah of course, then you have my interest.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

The vast, vast majority killed have been women and children

Are you quite sure about that?

Daily Telegraph paywall-dodging link:

https://archive.ph/Twot0

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Are you quite sure about that?

Daily Telegraph paywall-dodging link:

https://archive.ph/Twot0

About 72 per cent of fatalities aged 13-55 are men, which is the rough age range of Hamas combatants, Mr Fox said. “We know that Hamas uses child soldiers, and these statistics show clearly that Israel is targeting fighting-aged men.”

I like the way the starting point for this propaganda piece is to exclude some children altogether then justify the execution of other children because they are theoretically old enough to fight. Truly magnificent.

The absence of “independent” figures being used to justify silencing reporting on the figures is a close second.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

Are you quite sure about that?

Daily Telegraph paywall-dodging link:

https://archive.ph/Twot0

Pretty sure, was on the BBC late last year or can't they be trusted anymore, iirc the figures were 44% children and 26% women and again iirc it was verified by the UN

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

And 100% wrong

How is it wrong ?

Whatever peoples views are of what is happening now, the fact is this was all triggered by the attack, by Hamas, on 7th Oct 2023.

I have seen no evidence that anything like the events of now would have happened were it not for what took place on that day.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

How is it wrong ?

Whatever peoples views are of what is happening now, the fact is this was all triggered by the attack, by Hamas, on 7th Oct 2023.

I have seen no evidence that anything like the events of now would have happened were it not for what took place on that day.

There’s a difference between that being the sequence of events (of which there were decades of actions on both sides before that) and denying that the IDF have agency to decide not to slaughter paramedics, or generally a free pass to ignore the established norms of warfare by bombing hospitals.

7th October is an entirely arbitrary starting date.