Russia has invaded Ukraine

Originally Posted by ianch99

You clearly have a problem with the Ukrainian's fighting for their country so let me ask you this question: if you were in charge of Ukraine and could do anything, what would you do to end this conflict today?

With an addendum

"And that would stop a repeat of the same thing happening again, Oblast by Oblast"

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You clearly have a problem with the Ukrainian's fighting for their country so let me ask you this question: if you were in charge of Ukraine and could do anything, what would you do to end this conflict today?

Your question is based upon a false assumption where you have inferred something I have not said, nor implied.

---------- Post added at 18:19 ---------- Previous post was at 18:12 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

With an addendum

"And that would stop a repeat of the same thing happening again, Oblast by Oblast"

I’m sorry but the bogey man of perpetual Russian aggression doesn’t warrant sacrificing every Ukrainian man of fighting age in a war it is both losing and being inadequately resourced by its supposed allies.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

Your question is based upon a false assumption where you have inferred something I have not said, nor implied.

I have not inferred anything. I ask again, and it is a simple question: what do you think Ukraine should do today to stop what you see as a "meat grinder"?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I have not inferred anything. I ask again, and it is a simple question: what do you think Ukraine should do today to stop what you see as a "meat grinder"?

Sorry Ian that’s a nonsense.

Your own words were:

You clearly have a problem with the Ukrainian's fighting for their country

I absolutely reject this framing of the argument, just as I rejected that every post criticising Israel has to condemn Hamas first.

This framing is no more valid than me claiming you are happy to sacrifice Ukranians for Polish, Latvian, or anyone else’s security. How many Ukranians have to die before you’d countenance Ukraine negotiating a settlement and I ask again what mechanism can this be conveyed by the people if the Zelensky regime will not?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

Sorry Ian that’s a nonsense.

Your own words were:



I absolutely reject this framing of the argument, just as I rejected that every post criticising Israel has to condemn Hamas first.

This framing is no more valid than me claiming you are happy to sacrifice Ukranians for Polish, Latvian, or anyone else’s security. How many Ukranians have to die before you’d countenance Ukraine negotiating a settlement and I ask again what mechanism can this be conveyed by the people if the Zelensky regime will not?

Ok, some progress:

How many Ukranians have to die before you’d countenance Ukraine negotiating a settlement

So you think Ukraine should negotiate a settlement so what territory do you think they cede to achieve peace (if any)?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Ok, some progress:

No progress. That was a question for you from which you have once again inferred an opinion I hadn’t stated in that post.

Would you be willing to sacrifice them all for Polish security? Til the last Ukranian? Do the conscripts get a choice?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

what territory do you think they cede to achieve peace (if any)?

Well they haven’t had Crimea for a decade. They, and the West, gave it up with so much as a whimper.

Along with Donetsk and Luhansk, so they are already effectively part of Russia’s hand. What would now be up for negotiation would be the territory Russia has occupied and held since the invasion of 2022.

What territory they cede would be up to them, as part of any negotiation.

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

With an addendum

"And that would stop a repeat of the same thing happening again, Oblast by Oblast"

Well as someone of more mature years Hugh, and of an exMilitary background, I can assume that if you had to go to war on the frontline you wouldn’t hesitate, as seen as as all the 25-35yr olds were dead.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

No progress. That was a question for you from which you have once again inferred an opinion I hadn’t stated in that post.

Would you be willing to sacrifice them all for Polish security? Til the last Ukranian? Do the conscripts get a choice?

Another post where you criticise the current Ukrainian strategy yet are unwilling to declare what you think they should actually do.

Forget what I want, what do you think they should do? Last attempt on my part. If you, yet again, dance around the question and mock the current attempts for Ukraine to defend itself, I can only conclude you have no serious intent to debate this subject.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Another post where you criticise the current Ukrainian strategy yet are unwilling to declare what you think they should actually do.

Forget what I want, what do you think they should do? Last attempt on my part. If you, yet again, dance around the question and mock the current attempts for Ukraine to defend itself, I can only conclude you have no serious intent to debate this subject.

No, no, no Ian your wilful misinterpretation of my posts doesn't allow you to dictate debate here. The post you quoted doesn't refer to Ukrainian strategy at all - unless you actually think it is "til the last Ukrainian" or sacrificing them for Polish security. If you think millions of dead Ukrainian conscripts is a price worth paying for Polish security that says far more about you than me.

Knowing what know from your keyboard would you be willing to take up arms on Zelensky's front line? Would you encourage your children or grandchildren?

If (or when) Zelensky comes calling for Ukrainian men under 60 in the UK to be sent for slaughter at the hands of the Russian army should we deport them forthwith?

https://wapo.st/4d7FDKZ

The Senate overwhelmingly passed a $95 billion foreign aid bill on Tuesday, delivering billions of dollars in weapons and support to key U.S. allies Ukraine and Israel despite some opposition from both parties’ bases. The legislation, which passed by a 79-18 vote, had seemed all but dead for several months due to opposition in the GOP-led House.
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President Biden said in a statement he would sign the bill into law as soon as it crosses his desk on Wednesday, and send aid to Ukraine this week. The funds help him deliver on his promise to the nation’s NATO allies to continue to aid Ukraine as it enters its third year fending off Russia’s invasion.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

No, no, no Ian your wilful misinterpretation of my posts doesn't allow you to dictate debate here. The post you quoted doesn't refer to Ukrainian strategy at all - unless you actually think it is "til the last Ukrainian" or sacrificing them for Polish security. If you think millions of dead Ukrainian conscripts is a price worth paying for Polish security that says far more about you than me.

Knowing what know from your keyboard would you be willing to take up arms on Zelensky's front line? Would you encourage your children or grandchildren?

If (or when) Zelensky comes calling for Ukrainian men under 60 in the UK to be sent for slaughter at the hands of the Russian army should we deport them forthwith?

This is really surreal. I am asking a very simple question here and you vector off to criticise me for all sorts of weird stuff.

If you are unable (or unwilling) to say what you would change to stop the very thing you are criticising then there is no debate to be had here.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

This is really surreal. I am asking a very simple question here and you vector off to criticise me for all sorts of weird stuff.

If you are unable (or unwilling) to say what you would change to stop the very thing you are criticising then there is no debate to be had here.

There's nothing weird about calling you out for misinterpreting my posts.

That's three in a row now. There's nothing weird about asking if you wouldn't go to the front line to die, nor would you be happy for children or grandchildren to, why unwilling Ukrainian men should by virtue of where they were born.

I'm past dealing with your nonsense but Pierre's post 2797 above makes some pertinent points you have completely ignored in favour of this tedious line.

Originally Posted by jfman

Your question is based upon a false assumption where you have inferred something I have not said, nor implied.

---------- Post added at 18:19 ---------- Previous post was at 18:12 ----------



I’m sorry but the bogey man of perpetual Russian aggression doesn’t warrant sacrificing every Ukrainian man of fighting age in a war it is both losing and being inadequately resourced by its supposed allies.

Comrade* Haw-Haw, a bogey man is imaginary - Russia’s actions in Chechnya, Georgia, Transnistria, & Ukraine are very real…

*Tankies don’t believe in Lords…

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

There's nothing weird about calling you out for misinterpreting my posts.

That's three in a row now. There's nothing weird about asking if you wouldn't go to the front line to die, nor would you be happy for children or grandchildren to, why unwilling Ukrainian men should by virtue of where they were born.

I'm past dealing with your nonsense but Pierre's post 2797 above makes some pertinent points you have completely ignored in favour of this tedious line.

*Sigh* I am not misinterpreting anything. You rant about unwilling Ukrainians being killed yet you cannot say what should happen to stop it. I think most here would express an opinion on what should happen next.

I think what you don't say, says everything.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

*Sigh* I am not misinterpreting anything. You rant about unwilling Ukrainians being killed yet you cannot say what should happen to stop it. I think most here would express an opinion on what should happen next.

I think what you don't say, says everything.

This was not said in the post you quoted.

You clearly have a problem with the Ukrainian's fighting for their country

Nor this in the post quoted:

Another post where you criticise the current Ukrainian strategy

You may be overdosing on the pro-Ukranian kool aid and believe recapturing Crimea is achievable, and happy to commit the Ukrainian male population to die for it.

However somewhere else (in the real world) there has to be consideration of at least the possibility for some that dying in an ill equipped, never ending and futile war isn’t any more desirable for the average Ukrainians than it is for you from the luxury of your keyboard. How they would extract themselves from that is a good question. I refer again to Pierre’s post that you have not addressed while you persist in misrepresenting mine.

Under Zelensky, they’d need to kill him first.

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

Comrade* Haw-Haw, a bogey man is imaginary - Russia’s actions in Chechnya, Georgia, Transnistria, & Ukraine are very real…

*Tankies don’t believe in Lords…

For the purposes of this post only, I’ll concede the point and say it still doesn’t warrant sacrificing every Ukrainian man of fighting age in a war it is both losing and being inadequately resourced by its supposed allies.

What steps Ukraine, NATO, or anyone else could take between now and then to better resource the front line more than ritual human sacrifice would be welcome.