Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Did we kill 1% of the civilian population in 60 days?

Don't think they managed to do it that quickly, but they managed 7% in total.

about 140,000 of the Gazan population.

But that's looking at the whole European theatre.

When you look at specifics, like Dresden for example, we managed to kill 5% of that population in 2 days, and we weren't even going after military targets.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

Did we kill 1% of the civilian population in 60 days?

Your scrabbling for justifications now.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Don't think they managed to do it that quickly, but they managed 7% in total.

about 140,000 of the Gazan population.

But that's looking at the whole European theatre.

When you look at specifics, like Dresden for example, we managed to kill 5% of that population in 2 days, and we weren't even going after military targets.

That's Dresden that would almost certainly be a war crime if perpetrated today and before we had international laws designed to prevent things like that from happening

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

That's Dresden that would almost certainly be a war crime if perpetrated today and before we had international laws designed to prevent things like that from happening

Indeed, we should be living in more civilised times than World War II, a war which began 84 years ago!

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Your scrabbling for justifications now.

I’m not scrambling to justify anything, it is you who are clutching at straws to justify an indefensible action by any standards of modern warfare.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Indeed, we should be living in more civilised times than World War II, a war which began 84 years ago!

If only that had applied to Hamas.

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:52 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m not scrambling to justify anything, it is you who are clutching at straws to justify an indefensible action by any standards of modern warfare.

And what standards of modern warfare did Hamas meet?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

That's Dresden that would almost certainly be a war crime if perpetrated today and before we had international laws designed to prevent things like that from happening

I'm just pointing out, that war is war. This war no worse or better than any other war.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I'm just pointing out, that war is war. This war no worse or better than any other war.

It’s not war is war when Hamas are out raping folk though is it? It’s oh that’s terrible

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s not war is war when Hamas are out raping folk though is it? It’s oh that’s terrible

Because that was a terrorist attack, directly targeting civilians, the result was Israel declaring war on Hamas to eliminate them.

Similarly 9/11 was a terrorist attack, directly targeting civilians, the result was the invasion of Afghanistan under UN charter to eliminate Al-Qaeda.

in both cases terrorist groups are the objective, in both cases civilian collateral deaths. You can argue invading Afghanistan was equally unjustified but not single out Israel

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Because that was a terrorist attack, directly targeting civilians, the result was Israel declaring war on Hamas.

Similarly 9/11 was a terrorist attack, directly targeting civilians, the result was the invasion of Afghanistan under UN charter to eliminate Al-Qaeda.

It’s a completely arbitrary distinction. You’re determining that Israel can play by one set of rules (or actually, not play by them) legitimately yet Hamas can't. Yesterday they were the de-facto Palestinian government now they aren’t.

The Taliban were active in shielding Al Queda in Afghanistan in a way that Hamas aren’t in Gaza. Although 20 years on I’d imagine Israel’s actions will be equally as futile as America removing the Taliban, or indeed the proxy war in the Ukraine/Russia disputed territory.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s a completely arbitrary distinction. You’re determining that Israel can play by one set of rules (or actually, not play by them) legitimately yet Hamas can't. Yesterday they were the de-facto Palestinian government now they aren’t.

The Taliban were active in shielding Al Queda in Afghanistan in a way that Hamas aren’t in Gaza. Although 20 years on I’d imagine Israel’s actions will be equally as futile as America removing the Taliban, or indeed the proxy war in the Ukraine/Russia disputed territory.

So Hamas are to be allowed to repeatedly launch "hit and run" attacks or launch rockets and then hide amongst civilians?
Here's an example of somebody supporting the actions of Hamas,

An influencer who mockingly asked what side dishes should accompany an Israeli baby who was reportedly burned to death in an oven has been given a ten-month suspended jail sentence.

No indication of that being an atypical attitude of supporters of Hamas and their actions. That's the "nice" people we're talking about.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s a completely arbitrary distinction. You’re determining that Israel can play by one set of rules (or actually, not play by them) legitimately yet Hamas can't. Yesterday they were the de-facto Palestinian government now they aren’t.

I don’t think I am, Hamas are free to attack Israel…….oh hang on they do, they’ve fired 7,000 rockets since Oct 7th in addition to the 3,000 they fired on Oct 7th.

Hamas weren’t playing but the rules when they raped and directly targeted civilians. If they fire their rockets at Legitimate military targets in Israel and civilians are caught in the cross fire, they’d get a pass from me.

Although 20 years on I’d imagine Israel’s actions will be equally as futile as America removing the Taliban

I wouldn’t bet against that statement

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Wiping out Hamas is absolutely justifiable , wiping out Hamas at the cost of thousands of innocent lives being lost is not.

As always, there is the question of where do you draw a line.
How practical is it to avoid when they (Hamas) hide among the innocent civilians (clearly knowing what the result of this will be).

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

you have asked the question several times, it's been answered several times. I'm not doing any handwringing, you're doing just fine by yourself.

It's war, you want the war to stop?

Then instead of demanding Israel stop their actions, go out and march, demanding that Hamas unconditionally surrender. All Hamas soldiers & leaders and should come out, lay down their weapons, release the remaining hostages and give Israel all of their arsenal so it can be destroyed.

Then Israel would stop.

I get it now. You are content for Israel to kill unlimited numbers of civilians in pursuit of Hamas. At least that is cleared up. I personally find this position indefensible on many levels but hey, it takes all sorts I suppose.

---------- Post added at 19:07 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

Originally Posted by Paul

As always, there is the question of where do you draw a line.
How practical is it to avoid when they (Hamas) hide among the innocent civilians (clearly knowing what the result of this will be).

Yes, this is exactly the question I have been asking. In pursuit of the terrorists, how many dead & injured civilians is "too many"? Some are content to sanction an unlimited number but most people have more humanity than that.

I think this has gone too far. The UN, led by the US, should go in and establish safe zones that are, and are seen to be, Hamas free. This would provide a clear segregation and provide a place for people to live, with provision for food, water, power & medicines while the ongoing conflict plays out.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Paul

As always, there is the question of where do you draw a line.
How practical is it to avoid when they (Hamas) hide among the innocent civilians (clearly knowing what the result of this will be).

Now we’re getting into it, what is the value of an innocent Palestinian life ?

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprin...an%20FINAL.pdf

Long but worth a read

---------- Post added at 19:23 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

What actions had they taken against Gaza since their withdrawal in 2005 that wasn't in retaliation to Hamas aggression?

So, only aggression directed to Palestinians in Gaza counts ? Is that what we’re saying ?