Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Defining war crimes incorrectly

Well if anyone end up in court for war crimes they can use this defence from a Kings Counsel.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Paul

Except the post stated "accusing forum members of being anti-Semitic".

I do not see any forum members being accused.

Maybe you can ask OB to say who he meant when he said "but don’t expect the anti-Jewish guys to understand that"?

You may not see an issue here but others do.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well if anyone end up in court for war crimes they can use this defence from a Kings Counsel.

The certainly could, and I’m sure the legal gravy train could find a well educated KC (or someone of similar stature in another country) to argue there’s many a plausible alternative.

Doing what you “instinctively” feel is necessary might work at a personal level simply wouldn’t fly at an international one. Nation states have an obligation (to its own people as much as anything else) to act beyond instinct.

If your instinct is to identify all people of a race, religion, state or region as a threat equivalent to a terrorist (or example) it wouldn’t exempt you from an undeniable genocide. There’s many a former Yugoslavian who can testify to the existential threat to Yugoslavia as a collective entity not being a defence.

There’d also be the difficulty (over time) of demonstrating that each action in and of itself was only carried out in an “instinctive” way, rather than a cold, calculated one. An international version of the Tony Martin defence wouldn’t work given the time available to consider each individual action and recalculate the capabilities of the enemy as it diminishes.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Maggy

Reading through this particular thread has increased my headache. I’m wishing I had imbibed last night because I might actually understand what everyone’s beef is.

I think the main problem here is that there are those who will only consider the rights, impact and welfare of one of the two belligerents. The context & nuance on why both sides think like they do is lost on them. They have picked a side and will endorse a blank cheque to whatever actions they chose to undertake.

You have to look at the whole picture, both today and in the years past. This provide the context & illumination to try and understand how each side perceives each other. The main problem driving today's discussion is the partisan outrage following Hama's terrorist attacks. The response from so many to kill Hamas members at all costs is chilling. The lack of basic humanity in choosing to kill innocent women & children in pursue of your enemy is a crime yet so many are happy to endorse this. We have people saying with apparent conviction "If the children die, blame Hamas" and to justify these deaths because "that is what we did in WWII in Dresden". Have we sunk that low?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I think the main problem here is that there are those who will only consider the rights, impact and welfare of one of the two belligerents. The context & nuance on why both sides think like they do is lost on them. They have picked a side and will endorse a blank cheque to whatever actions they chose to undertake.

You have to look at the whole picture, both today and in the years past. This provide the context & illumination to try and understand how each side perceives each other. The main problem driving today's discussion is the partisan outrage following Hama's terrorist attacks. The response from so many to kill Hamas members at all costs is chilling. The lack of basic humanity in choosing to kill innocent women & children in pursue of your enemy is a crime yet so many are happy to endorse this. We have people saying with apparent conviction "If the children die, blame Hamas" and to justify these deaths because "that is what we did in WWII in Dresden". Have we sunk that low?

That post is so full of irony and lack of self awareness it’s mind blowing. You are guilty of everything you are accusing others of.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

That post is so full of irony and lack of self awareness it’s mind blowing. You are guilty of everything you are accusing others of.

Prove it

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

I’ll tell you once again, not one Palestinian would be dead this week by the IDF if not for the actions of Hamas

Some context:

Palestinians under attack as Israeli settler violence surges in the West Bank

Abed Wadi was getting dressed for the funeral when the message arrived.

It was an image, forwarded to him by a friend, of a group of masked men posing with axes, a petrol canister, and a chainsaw, with text printed on the image in Hebrew and Arabic.

"To all the rats in the sewers of Qusra village, we are waiting for you and we will not mourn you," the text said.

"The day of revenge is coming."

Qusra was Wadi's village, in the northern part of the West Bank near Nablus. The funeral that day was for four Palestinians from the village. Three had been killed the previous day - Wednesday 11 October - after Israeli settlers entered Qusra and attacked a Palestinian family home.

The fourth was shot dead in clashes with Israeli soldiers that followed.

The following day, the Qusra villagers were preparing to set out for a hospital half an hour away and return with the bodies of the dead. To do so, they would need to travel across land that is dotted with Israeli settlements, where the risk of violence, high even in ordinary times, has risen dramatically in the two weeks since Israel went to war with Hamas.

Wadi put his phone down and continued getting dressed. There were four men in refrigerators in the hospital who needed to be brought home. He was not going to be deterred by a threat, he said. He had heard too many.

There was no way for Wadi to know that, in a few hours' time, hardline Israeli settlers would confront the funeral procession and his own brother and young nephew would be shot dead.

According to the UN's humanitarian office, the week that followed Hamas's murderous attack was the deadliest for Palestinians in the West Bank since it began reporting fatalities in 2005, with at least 75 Palestinians killed by the Israeli military or settlers, and incidents of settler violence up from an average of three a day to eight.

In one raid on a Palestinian refugee camp, and a rare air strike in the region, on Thursday 12th, Israeli forces killed at least 12 people, Palestinian officials said, and Israeli police said one officer was killed.

There was "a real risk" of the occupied territory "spiralling out of control", the UN said this week.

Palestinian residents of the West Bank say that while the world's attention is drawn to the unfolding disaster in Gaza, Israeli settlers are taking advantage by entering villages and expelling, and even killing, Palestinian civilians.

In at least three cases, according to video footage or eyewitness testimony from villagers, the settlers have been wearing military uniforms or accompanied by the Israeli military in their attacks.

Hamas are not carrying out operations in the West Bank as far I can see.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Prove it.

I don’t think you’d see it if it hit you in the face, old chap.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Maggy

Reading through this particular thread has increased my headache. I’m wishing I had imbibed last night because I might actually understand what everyone’s beef is.

I suggest that you had imbibed last night as it's obvious that there are two beefs:

1/
Those who say Hamas need to be eradicated for their recent massacre of innocent Israelis.

2/
Those who pay lip service about Hamas' atrocities but then shift the blame onto Israel or enthusiastically criticise Israel for its behaviour.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Some context:

Palestinians under attack as Israeli settler violence surges in the West Bank

Quote:
Abed Wadi was getting dressed for the funeral when the message arrived.

It was an image, forwarded to him by a friend, of a group of masked men posing with axes, a petrol canister, and a chainsaw, with text printed on the image in Hebrew and Arabic.

"To all the rats in the sewers of Qusra village, we are waiting for you and we will not mourn you," the text said.

"The day of revenge is coming."

Qusra was Wadi's village, in the northern part of the West Bank near Nablus. The funeral that day was for four Palestinians from the village. Three had been killed the previous day - Wednesday 11 October - after Israeli settlers entered Qusra and attacked a Palestinian family home.

The fourth was shot dead in clashes with Israeli soldiers that followed.

The following day, the Qusra villagers were preparing to set out for a hospital half an hour away and return with the bodies of the dead. To do so, they would need to travel across land that is dotted with Israeli settlements, where the risk of violence, high even in ordinary times, has risen dramatically in the two weeks since Israel went to war with Hamas.

Wadi put his phone down and continued getting dressed. There were four men in refrigerators in the hospital who needed to be brought home. He was not going to be deterred by a threat, he said. He had heard too many.

There was no way for Wadi to know that, in a few hours' time, hardline Israeli settlers would confront the funeral procession and his own brother and young nephew would be shot dead.

According to the UN's humanitarian office, the week that followed Hamas's murderous attack was the deadliest for Palestinians in the West Bank since it began reporting fatalities in 2005, with at least 75 Palestinians killed by the Israeli military or settlers, and incidents of settler violence up from an average of three a day to eight.

In one raid on a Palestinian refugee camp, and a rare air strike in the region, on Thursday 12th, Israeli forces killed at least 12 people, Palestinian officials said, and Israeli police said one officer was killed.

There was "a real risk" of the occupied territory "spiralling out of control", the UN said this week.

Palestinian residents of the West Bank say that while the world's attention is drawn to the unfolding disaster in Gaza, Israeli settlers are taking advantage by entering villages and expelling, and even killing, Palestinian civilians.

In at least three cases, according to video footage or eyewitness testimony from villagers, the settlers have been wearing military uniforms or accompanied by the Israeli military in their attacks.


Hamas are not carrying out operations in the West Bank as far I can see.

But nobody is condoning that, Ian. This is how people can react after the horrific violence such Hamas unleashed on the Israeli people.

The government there must act quickly to make sure similar atrocities do not take place while the IDF deal with Hamas.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I suggest that you had imbibed last night as it's obvious that there are two beefs:

1/
Those who say Hamas need to be eradicated for their recent massacre of innocent Israelis.

Nobody disputes that having terrorists in undesirable, the question is whether running a massive recruitment campaign on their behalf is a credible mechanism for removing them.

Failed US diplomatic efforts across the Middle East ensures that the money, weapons and logistics will continue to flow. Israel are recruiting the men.

2/
Those who pay lip service about Hamas' atrocities but then shift the blame onto Israel or enthusiastically criticise Israel for its behaviour.

I'm not sure anyone paid 'lip service' the only distinction is whether you did it in the spineless way to green light Israeli war crimes or actually find both worthy of condemnation.

The lip service is all from our politicians around Israel's behaviour and its obligations under international law.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I suggest that you had imbibed last night as it's obvious that there are two beefs:

1/
Those who say Hamas need to be eradicated for their recent massacre of innocent Israelis.

2/
Those who pay lip service about Hamas' atrocities but then shift the blame onto Israel or enthusiastically criticise Israel for its behaviour.

Sadly, this attitude of blaming everything on Israel is an international pastime. Whenever it is pointed out that Israel is only defending itself, these accusers then point out that Israel has superior weapons, so it’s unfair. I’m afraid that logic flies out of the window whenever there’s a debate about this perpetual conflict.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I don’t think you’d see it if it hit you in the face, old chap.

Prove it

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

But nobody is condoning that, Ian. This is how people can react after the horrific violence such Hamas unleashed on the Israeli people.

The government there must act quickly to make sure similar atrocities do not take place while the IDF deal with Hamas.

Not correct. This has been happening in the West Bank for years but this clearly does not fit your narrative.

I'll make it easy for you to understand: both sides are to blame when you look at this situation on a holistic & historical level.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Nobody disputes that having terrorists in undesirable, the question is whether running a massive recruitment campaign on their behalf is a credible mechanism for removing them.

Failed US diplomatic efforts across the Middle East ensures that the money, weapons and logistics will continue to flow. Israel are recruiting the men.



I'm not sure anyone paid 'lip service' the only distinction is whether you did it in the spineless way to green light Israeli war crimes or actually find both worthy of condemnation.

The lip service is all from our politicians around Israel's behaviour and its obligations under international law.

The only way this continual violence will end is by taking out the terrorists. For some unfathomable reason, you seem to want Israel to treat them with kid gloves. Why?

I understand the sympathy being expressed for the Palestinian people, but Hamas must be removed for their sake as well as for Israel’s. We’ve tried everything else. They are not interested in any kind of settlement, they just want to obliterate Israel. Are you content to stand back and let that happen, or alternatively have this warmongering carrying on for the next 100+ years?

If you have some magic solution as an alternative to crushing Hamas, I’m sure we’d all like to hear it.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

But nobody is condoning that, Ian. This is how people can react after the horrific violence such Hamas unleashed on the Israeli people.

The government there must act quickly to make sure similar atrocities do not take place while the IDF deal with Hamas.

And when Palestinians react by blowing up Israeli targets, killing Israeli civilians and worse still their allies carry out attack in European cities or in North America I assume you'll be equally as understanding.

That's how people react in the face of horrific violence, innit?

What's qwhite interesting is your ability to understand the consequences but want to deny one side that right over the other. I wonder why.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Those who pay lip service about Hamas' atrocities but then shift the blame onto Israel or enthusiastically criticise Israel for its behaviour

No one is doing this and you know it. I am more than happy to say now, as I have said in the past, that Hamas needs to be eradicated. Can I not make this any clearer? They are an Islamist death cult. The discussion is how it is done and what consequences such methods have.

When you, and a few others, only view a problem from one side and pay no heed to overall context and history, they make stupid comments like the above.