Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Told to leave their homes and then the camp is bombed...

Originally Posted by jfman

In another bout of “bad luck” the Israelis told Palestinians the border crossing to Egypt was open. It’s now been closed due to heavy bombing in the area.

A thought experiment might be if you wanted to systematically slaughter the Palestinian people, but do it just on the right side of plausible deniability, how would it differ from what we are witnessing now.

More bad luck as leaflets were dropped ordering 1.1 million Palestinians to leave their homes for their safety only for the convoys to be attacked and over 70 people killed, apparently 13 hostages have also been killed by the indiscriminate bombings

---------- Post added at 03:10 ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Not when the terms of one side is complete destruction of the other.

That used to be Fatahs ideology too

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Terms and people change over time. As I said, a settlement is unlikely in our lifetime.

Might help if we went after the Hamas leadership, they're not slumming it in the ghetto, they're living like kings in Doha, go after them and their money, start empowering Fatah to oppose them and get a proper succession plan in place for when Abbas passes on, the problem is we don't have the will to try, we've bought into the rhetoric hook line and sinker with this nonsense about things being to intransigent, it's almost like neither side want it to succeed and have suckered the world into believing it's true

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

None of the Palestinians that have died or been injured, since Saturday, would be so if not because of Hamas’ actions on that day.

There can’t be but a few hundred Hamas.

But, I don’t know.

All I know is there is no future for Palestinians in Gaza or anywhere else, with Hamas in charge.

Few hundred Hamas yet over 500 children killed is a proportionate response?

You are being duped into blaming the victims by association here.

There’s no peaceful future for Israel when it indiscriminately kills women and children in bombing raids. Go onto the Israeli air force Twitter feed and look through the photos of residential areas decimated and tell me they look like proportionate actions.

After all there are “but a few hundred” Hamas. With thousands upon thousands of bombs dropped surely they’ve got them all by now.

Or, and hear me out in this one, are Israel not just targeting Hamas?

The latest numbers in the Guardian update.

At least 1,900 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza from Israeli strikes, including 614 children and 370 women

I ask once again when do you say enough? What’s the tipping point where it can no longer be blamed on Hamas? 10,000? 100,000? A million?

If the answer is never enough then there’s no point going round and round in the coming days as Israel escalate the conflict further. Our positions are clear enough from the many posts thus far.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

More bad luck as leaflets were dropped ordering 1.1 million Palestinians to leave their homes for their safety only for the convoys to be attacked and over 70 people killed, apparently 13 hostages have also been killed by the indiscriminate bombings

There’s a pretty horrific video on Twitter, and also one before showing mainly women and children sitting on a long trailer taken minutes before. Would be interesting for the Israel apologists to have a look and tell us how in their view it was a legitimate target and what (if any) steps they believe Israel took to minimise civilian casualties.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

You are being duped into blaming the victims by association here.

I’m not blaming the victims, I’m blaming Hamas.

And so should the Palestinians.

I ask once again when do you say enough? What’s the tipping point where it can no longer be blamed on Hamas? 10,000? 100,000? A million?

I’ll tell you once again, not one Palestinian would be dead this week by the IDF if not for the actions of Hamas

I wouldn’t support an organisation that provoked a conflict they knew they couldn’t win, they knew that their actions would result in more of their own innocent population being killed than they could kill Israelis.

there’s no point going round and round in the coming days as Israel escalate the conflict further. Our positions are clear enough from the many posts thus far.

Probably correct.

There’s a pretty horrific video on Twitter, and also one before showing mainly women and children sitting on a long trailer taken minutes before. Would be interesting for the Israel apologists to have a look and tell us how in their view it was a legitimate target

I’ve already said on here, that I believe that Israel should stop their counter offensive.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I’ll tell you once again, not one Palestinian would be dead this week by the IDF if not for the actions of Hamas

Not strictly true. Palestinians and Israelis are killed & injured on an ongoing basis:

[denphone]

l thought this was a good listen last night by Patrick Kielty whose Dad John was shot dead by the UFF during The Troubles in N Ireland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpYr...heLateLateShow

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Not strictly true. Palestinians and Israelis are killed & injured on an ongoing basis:

OK Mr P. Dantic. It was making a point about current events, but if you want me to be pedantic. I said “this week”.

[Sephiroth]

The pro-Hamas demonstrations in the UK should be a warning of what will happen when we all have to face East.

Farage is right: Who is on the immigrant boats?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The pro-Hamas demonstrations in the UK should be a warning of what will happen when we all have to face East.

Farage is right: Who is on the immigrant boats?

Pro Palestine != Pro Hamas

Taking a horrific situation and trying to use it to promote your own agenda. That’s a new low..

What happened to you ???

[jfman]

I actually find it comforting that so many of my fellow citizens are out despite the threats of our own authoritarian Government around the flying of the Palestinian flag.

While our politicians and political class are happy to dine at the table of American imperialism it's reassuring that people are looking with their own eyes and making assessments themselves.

If you stood up and condemned Russian activity in Ukraine but are silent over atrocities by the Apartheid state in Gaza then you are nothing but a shill. That applies to UK politicians and EU ones like Ursula von der Leyen. The pretence of an 'international rules based order' is dead. I always expected it to go but I didn't think it'd have been an attack on Israel that would finish it off.

Originally Posted by jfman

I actually find it comforting that so many of my fellow citizens are out despite the threats of our own authoritarian Government around the flying of the Palestinian flag.

While our politicians and political class are happy to dine at the table of American imperialism it's reassuring that people are looking with their own eyes and making assessments themselves.

If you stood up and condemned Russian activity in Ukraine but are silent over atrocities by the Apartheid state in Gaza then you are nothing but a shill. That applies to UK politicians and EU ones like Ursula von der Leyen. The pretence of an 'international rules based order' is dead. I always expected it to go but I didn't think it'd have been an attack on Israel that would finish it off.

If you had unequivocally condemned Hamas’ barbarism when it occurred last week instead of indulging in Corbynisms, you might have a shred of the moral authority necessary to say any of the above and to sound convincing. But you didn’t, and you don’t. For you to stand up now and accuse anyone of shilling for anything is comedy of the highest order.

Personally I had no reservations about condemning Hamas’ terrorist outrages in southern Israel last week on their own terms; they were barbaric, and I’d say sub-human but for the fact that it is evident their behaviour is entirely human. It is what humans do when they are inculcated with an ideology that dehumanises those who are ‘other’, which is exactly what Hamas’ extremist ideology does.

And I have no reservations about condemning the cutting off food and fuel to an entire population (given the nature of the Hamas threat there is no military utility in doing so - it is collective punishment and illegal under international law) and the bombing of convoys of fleeing civilians even if Hamas terrorists are hiding in those convoys.

If you stood up and condemned Israeli activity in Palestine but are silent over atrocities by the Russian state in Ukraine then you are nothing but a shill, with over six hundred children killed, thousands of children kidnapped, and tens of thousands of targeted civilian casualties and deaths in the last eighteen months.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Chris

If you had unequivocally condemned Hamas’ barbarism when it occurred last week instead of indulging in Corbynisms, you might have a shred of the moral authority necessary to say any of the above and to sound convincing. But you didn’t, and you don’t. For you to stand up now and accuse anyone of shilling for anything is comedy of the highest order.

Personally I had no reservations about condemning Hamas’ terrorist outrages in southern Israel last week on their own terms; they were barbaric, and I’d say sub-human but for the fact that it is evident their behaviour is entirely human. It is what humans do when they are inculcated with an ideology that dehumanises those who are ‘other’, which is exactly what Hamas’ extremist ideology does.

And I have no reservations about condemning the cutting off food and fuel to an entire population (given the nature of the Hamas threat there is no military utility in doing so - it is collective punishment and illegal under international law) and the bombing of convoys of fleeing civilians even if Hamas terrorists are hiding in those convoys.

To add some balance this is just one way that Israel has acted illegally under international law. But this and other acts are tolerated by the international community because <insert reason here>

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

If you had unequivocally condemned Hamas’ barbarism when it occurred last week instead of indulging in Corbynisms, you might have a shred of the moral authority necessary to say any of the above and to sound convincing. But you didn’t, and you don’t. For you to stand up now and accuse anyone of shilling for anything is comedy of the highest order.

Personally I had no reservations about condemning Hamas’ terrorist outrages in southern Israel last week on their own terms; they were barbaric, and I’d say sub-human but for the fact that it is evident their behaviour is entirely human. It is what humans do when they are inculcated with an ideology that dehumanises those who are ‘other’, which is exactly what Hamas’ extremist ideology does.

And I have no reservations about condemning the cutting off food and fuel to an entire population (given the nature of the Hamas threat there is no military utility in doing so - it is collective punishment and illegal under international law) and the bombing of convoys of fleeing civilians even if Hamas terrorists are hiding in those convoys.

I think you'll find I did condemn it Chris - merely not using the spineless rhetoric that we are required to accompany it 'Israel has a right to defend herself' that is universally used to censor any debate that attributes the cause of the ongoing conflict to the actions of both sides now, both sides in the past and ultimately both sides in the future.

The requirement frames the debate immediately, and there was enough of that going on from the very first post.

---------- Post added at 14:59 ---------- Previous post was at 14:46 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

If you stood up and condemned Israeli activity in Palestine but are silent over atrocities by the Russian state in Ukraine then you are nothing but a shill, with over six hundred children killed, thousands of children kidnapped, and tens of thousands of targeted civilian casualties and deaths in the last eighteen months.

Hang on have the Israelis killed more children in seven days than Russia have in eighteen months? Dear god. By their own admission they've only just gotten started.

I've definitely condemned Russian activity and underlined the need for a peaceful solution so no particular concern on this front. I'm equally not a politician acting as some kind of moral arbiter of which military causes are just and which are not.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Pro Palestine != Pro Hamas

Taking a horrific situation and trying to use it to promote your own agenda. That’s a new low..

What happened to you ???

Tell me why, "suddenly" there are pro-Palestinian demonstrations as distinct from pro-Hamas?

The demonstrators, as has been shown on TV, are quite content with the Hamas barbarism that took place on 7-October.

You accuse me of promoting my own agenda. We have seen on 9/11 and 7/7 what the terrorist element can do and have done. Are the young male Middle East boat immigrants to be trusted? Are we at risk of another atrocity? Isn't an agenda to wake the forum up to this likelihood/possibility a worthy cause? Haven't similar incidents in France supported my view?

The "what happened to you" remark I take as a compliment. This issue on which I am resolute, however, is the unregulated influx of potential terrorists.

With regard to Israel/Hamas, I suspect that Hamas knew it would end up shredded and that there would be a collateral price paid by the citizens for they care nothing.

Israel doesn't help itself in the political space - having elected a parliament where the Ultras have a major hand in government. They remind me of the Ayatollahs by both sharing a similar degree of intransigence toward each other.

The early/mid 1990s brought Israel and Palestine close to a deal but that stalled in 2001 when the hawkish Likud party took power in Israel and the built settlements in Palestinian territory. It will take a huge upheaval in Israeli politics to get negotiations restarted.

I'm rational, as usual.

EDIT: Interesting Article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-always-fails

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Tell me why, "suddenly" there are pro-Palestinian demonstrations as distinct from pro-Hamas?

The demonstrators, as has been shown on TV, are quite content with the Hamas barbarism that took place on 7-October.

You accuse me of promoting my own agenda. We have seen on 9/11 and 7/7 what the terrorist element can do and have done. Are the young male Middle East boat immigrants to be trusted? Are we at risk of another atrocity? Isn't an agenda to wake the forum up to this likelihood/possibility a worthy cause? Haven't similar incidents in France supported my view?

The "what happened to you" remark I take as a compliment. This issue on which I am resolute, however, is the unregulated influx of potential terrorists.

With regard to Israel/Hamas, I suspect that Hamas knew it would end up shredded and that there would be a collateral price paid by the citizens for they care nothing.

Israel doesn't help itself in the political space - having elected a parliament where the Ultras have a major hand in government. They remind me of the Ayatollahs by both sharing a similar degree of intransigence toward each other.

The early/mid 1990s brought Israel and Palestine close to a deal but that stalled in 2001 when the hawkish Likud party took power in Israel and the built settlements in Palestinian territory. It will take a huge upheaval in Israeli politics to get negotiations restarted.

I'm rational, as usual.

EDIT: Interesting Article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-always-fails

I don't agree with all of your points Seph but on this one I will.

There will certainly be more people motivated and willing to carry out terror attacks in Europe and the UK on boats in the near future so long as the UK, the EU and the United States are complicit in Israeli war crimes.

It doesn't really matter from their perspective where you are on the scale between providing political cover or direct military assistance.

No I don't agree that what you are watching on television is pro-Hamas, unless you are watching channels significantly different from those on mine.