Russia has invaded Ukraine

[jfman]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...a-talks-report

Let’s see who is in charge.

Here’s a readable link to the full Washington Post article the Grauniad article is based on.

https://wapo.st/3DDpmfT

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...a-talks-report

Let’s see who is in charge.

Russian apologist, only total victory is acceptable.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Russian apologist, only total victory is acceptable.

Acceptable to who ?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Paul

Acceptable to who ?

Well I was just being tongue in cheek with JFman,

But since you ask, from the article

Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, has said Ukraine is only prepared to enter negotiations with Russia if its troops leave all parts of Ukraine, including Crimea and the eastern areas of the Donbas, de facto controlled by Russia since 2014, and if those Russians who have committed crimes in Ukraine face trial.

Zelenskiy also made clear that he would not hold negotiations with the current Russian leadership. Last month, he signed a decree specifying that Ukraine would only negotiate with a Russian president who has succeeded Vladimir Putin.

[tweetiepooh]

Me thinks that the change in Russian tactics to hit infrastructure has likely hardened attitudes in Ukraine. Hopefully they will maintain their generally good attitude to captured Russians.

BREAKING: Ukraine confirms that it has received its first NASAMS systems. NASAMS are short to medium range ground-based air defence systems.

Ukraine has requested additional air defence support as Russia pummels civilian infrastructure and Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov thanked Spain, the US and Norway for their help. - Samuel Ramani, Foreign Policy.

Satellites detect more than 1,500 new graves near Russia-occupied Mariupol

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...fba0c81288b570

More than 1,500 graves have been dug in recent months at a mass burial site near the Russian-occupied city of Mariupol, satellite imagery has shown.

Images shot by Maxar, a space technology company, show that three mass burial sites located at Staryi Krym, Manhush and Vynohradne, have been steadily growing since the spring, when Russian troops gained control of the port city following three months of siege warfare.

Analysis of the images of Staryi Krym by the Centre for Information Resilience (CIR), a British human rights organisation, and the BBC concluded that 1,500 new graves had been dug there since it last analysed images at the site in June.

CIR now estimates that more than 4,600 graves have been dug in the area since the beginning of the war.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Satellites detect more than 1,500 new graves near Russia-occupied Mariupol

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...fba0c81288b570

Sickening.

[pip08456]

Antono Company says it has initiated works to complete the second Antonov An-225 Mriya aircraft!

[Pierre]

This, of course, is not representative of all the US. That said most of the US don’t know what Ukraine is or where it is. But they’re paying for it.

https://unherd.com/thepost/david-sac...o-nuclear-war/

Worth a listen, especially as it highlights the narrative that anyone suggesting peace via negotiation ( is there usually any other way?) is labelled a Putin apologist, when in the past they would just be a pacifist.

Meanwhile, the Russians have been out and about today, admitting they’re interfering with the US election. It seems to me that doing all they can to come to the aid of those labelled ‘Putin apologist’ would be worth their effort …

Originally Posted by Pierre

Worth a listen, especially as it highlights the narrative that anyone suggesting peace via negotiation ( is there usually any other way?) is labelled a Putin apologist, when in the past they would just be a pacifist.

It's when people make disingenuous calls for negotiations whilst trying to give Russia a stronger hand that are apologists. People like Corbyn or the Republicans want to stop arming Ukraine and force them to the table.

Negotiations on Ukraine's terms are fine.

Alternatively, Russia leaves Ukraine. That's all they want, to not be invaded. This isn't some disputed land that has acted as a buffer between the states, it isn't a dispute over unclaimed land either. It's a sovereign nation being invaded by an imperialist state who are now losing and are getting its friends in the West to try and force Ukraine to stop.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Meanwhile, the Russians have been out and about today, admitting they’re interfering with the US election. It seems to me that doing all they can to come to the aid of those labelled ‘Putin apologist’ would be worth their effort …

Somewhat ironic considering it’s usually America subverting democracies they disagree with.

---------- Post added at 22:53 ---------- Previous post was at 22:48 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

It's when people make disingenuous calls for negotiations whilst trying to give Russia a stronger hand that are apologists. People like Corbyn or the Republicans want to stop arming Ukraine and force them to the table.

Negotiations on Ukraine's terms are fine.

Are they Ukraine”s terms or America’s terms?

Alternatively, Russia leaves Ukraine. That's all they want, to not be invaded. This isn't some disputed land that has acted as a buffer between the states, it isn't a dispute over unclaimed land either. It's a sovereign nation being invaded by an imperialist state who are now losing and are getting its friends in the West to try and force Ukraine to stop.

Russia and ethnic Russians in Ukraine could legitimately argue they just want Ukraine/the US to hold up their end of the bargain from Minsk II - a topic raised in the podcast Pierre links to that is seldom (indeed, never) acknowledged in the “acceptable” western narrative.

---------- Post added at 23:01 ---------- Previous post was at 22:53 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

This, of course, is not representative of all the US. That said most of the US don’t know what Ukraine is or where it is. But they’re paying for it.

https://unherd.com/thepost/david-sac...o-nuclear-war/

Worth a listen, especially as it highlights the narrative that anyone suggesting peace via negotiation ( is there usually any other way?) is labelled a Putin apologist, when in the past they would just be a pacifist.

I gave it a listen - more very good points raised than weak ones and correctly identifies many of the narratives deemed toxic in the west. It’s no longer acceptable to oppose war for the sake of war in this one.

One point I disagree with him on though is where he says America should look out for its own interests. The error here is assuming they aren’t - the military industrial complex in the US has them in a perpetual state of war operating to the same formula. Lucrative rebuilding contracts and rapid privatisation to extract as much wealth as possible from the country in question while propping up a puppet regime.

The internal conflict for the US is between the military industrial complex - which says the quiet bit out loud in the Washington Post article Hugh linked to yesterday in that regardless of domestic politics they have the votes on both sides of the aisle - and the wider American economy that loses out from high inflation and billions of overseas customers giving all their disposable income to energy companies so they don’t freeze to death. It’s no surprise it’s the tech industry ringing the alarm bells first.

If (or when) wider US economic interests win out Zelensky (or his successor) will be round the table quicker than you can say “Minsk Three”.

Reasonable explanation of why Minsk II’s internal contradictions make it unlikely to resolve anything….

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2022/02...ukraine-crisis

Why does Minsk-2 cause such debate?

Minsk-2 purports to create a framework to resolve the war, but it is a tangle of contradictory provisions, and a convoluted and contested sequence of actions. Textual incoherence reflects incompatible interpretations of what is to be achieved and how. And at its heart is a simple problem – Ukraine sees Minsk-2 as a means to restore its sovereignty, but Russia views it as a tool with which to cripple Ukraine’s sovereignty…

… The question of ‘special status’ for the DNR/LNR is even more controversial because, contrary to what is sometimes suggested, Russia’s demands go way beyond any reasonable definition of autonomy. Moscow wants an extreme version of autonomy and insists this is written into Ukraine’s constitution, meaning that following formal reintegration into Ukraine these mini-states would be essentially independent of Kyiv.

This would embed Russian influence into Ukraine’s political system, compromising Ukraine’s sovereignty from within. Such an agenda is spelled out in leaked emails from the mastermind of Donbas separatism Vladislav Surkov who has also said Ukrainian law would not apply in a post-settlement Donbas.