Coronavirus (OLD)

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The transmission risk is higher, compared to people breathing normally. That is why singing is banned in churches etc.

You think that countries like Poland and Romania, are going to contribute the full cost of their doses? Even in your nonsense collective bargaining scenario, the UK would be paying over the odds compared to negotiating ourselves, as we would be paying for other countries as well.
Link

Nomadking I’m absolutely appalled by your denial of science here. Seriously, what do you gain from such misinformation? I accept I’ve been controversial at times throughout this thread yet have general agreement from notional adversaries Seph, Carth, and to a lesser extent Pierre.

Steps need to be taken. Yes we can disagree about what normal might look like, or the timescale, fine. But masks, quarantine, these are all part of the future.

This isn’t Conservative v Labour, capitalism v socialism. Capitalism dies in its arse when consumers are dying off and families are paying for premature funerals. As you asked, is that money better off spent elsewhere?

Collective bargaining not worthy of reply. Again narrow view of single transaction economics.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Nomadking I’m absolutely appalled by your denial of science here. Seriously, what do you gain from such misinformation? I accept I’ve been controversial at times throughout this thread yet have general agreement from notional adversaries Seph, Carth, and to a lesser extent Pierre.

Steps need to be taken. Yes we can disagree about what normal might look like, or the timescale, fine. But masks, quarantine, these are all part of the future.

This isn’t Conservative v Labour, capitalism v socialism. Capitalism dies in its arse when consumers are dying off and families are paying for premature funerals. As you asked, is that money better off spent elsewhere?

Collective bargaining not worthy of reply. Again narrow view of single transaction economics.

Denial of science? My Biochemistry days may have been a long time ago.

Is singing banned in a lot of places, not just the UK? Yes or No?
Link

He added: “Singing and chanting are not allowed even at a distance due to the additional risk of infection and woodwind and brass instruments should not be used, but that does still leave many other instruments.”

Even shouting is a problem.


WHO advice

Current evidence suggests that COVID-19 spreads between people through direct, indirect (through contaminated objects or surfaces), or close contact with infected people via mouth and nose secretions. These include saliva, respiratory secretions or secretion droplets. These are released from the mouth or nose when an infected person coughs, sneezes, speaks or sings, for example.

Link

Simply breathing or talking may be the most common ways the coronavirus spreads, a study suggests.
Chinese scientists found Covid-19 patients exhale millions of viral particles per hour, even if they have mild or no symptoms.

...

Like most respiratory illnesses, the highly-infectious disease is spread in tiny droplets of moisture that carry viral particles.
It was previously thought that the main source of transmission was via these droplets from coughs and sneezes.
But the latest finding suggests the coronavirus can spread just as easily in aerosols in the breath and may explain why it has managed to rapidly race around the world.

Am I wrong on the maths of Ballistics? Yes or No?

As the firms are saying they are not going to seek profits, the notion of collective bargaining is nonsense. Even if bidding was a factor, as we would be effectively paying for others, the price per dose that we could use would be higher. In that situation we would be able to instead use the extra to outbid others.

As my quote pointed out.

We would have joined the EU scheme if they had allowed us also to continue with our own negotiations, but one of the conditions of the scheme was that we would have had to stop our own negotiations and only do them through the European Commission and we weren’t prepared to do that.

[1andrew1]

Gone past the stage of being surprised by this.

Revealed: Key Cummings and Gove ally given COVID-19 contract without open tender...
The Cabinet Office has awarded an £840,000 contract for researching public opinion about government policies to a company owned by two long-term associates of Michael Gove and Dominic Cummings, without putting the work out for tender.

Public First, a small policy and research company in London’s Tufton Street, is run by James Frayne - whose work alongside Cummings dates back to a Eurosceptic campaign 20 years ago - and Rachel Wolf, a former advisor to Gove who co-wrote the Conservative Party’s 2019 election manifesto.

The government justified the absence of a competitive tendering process, which would have enabled other companies to bid, under emergency regulations that allow services to be urgently commissioned in response to the COVID-19 crisis.

However the Cabinet Office’s public record states that portions of the work, which involved conducting focus groups, related to Brexit rather than COVID-19, a joint investigation by openDemocracy and the Guardian has established.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dar...t-competition/

Originally Posted by nomadking

Denial of science? My Biochemistry days may have been a long time ago.

Is singing banned in a lot of places, not just the UK? Yes or No?
Link
Even shouting is a problem.


WHO advice

Link
Am I wrong on the maths of Ballistics? Yes or No?

As the firms are saying they are not going to seek profits, the notion of collective bargaining is nonsense. Even if bidding was a factor, as we would be effectively paying for others, the price per dose that we could use would be higher. In that situation we would be able to instead use the extra to outbid others.

As my quote pointed out.

Gish galloping as normal...

FFS, give it up, both of you, this is getting very tiresome, how about we get back to the topic at hand.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by nomadking

We would have joined the EU scheme if they had allowed us also to continue with our own negotiations, but one of the conditions of the scheme was that we would have had to stop our own negotiations and only do them through the European Commission and we weren’t prepared to do that.

Fake News and Brexit doublethink:

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...cerns-12025718

Whitehall sources suggested the EU could give preferential treatment to member states when it came to vaccine allocation. The same sources also said the EU initially demanded Britain drop its support for vaccine development in this country, such as the trials currently going on at Oxford university and Imperial College.

But an EU source said on Friday that claim was "not true and misleading", adding that the EU will "always promote all means that would result in the quick finding and production of a successful vaccine".

The source also rejected allegations that the UK would be discriminated against, saying doses would be "distributed according to population".

The UK would be free to continue its own work on vaccine development ..

I wonder who the "Whitehall source" is? All together now ..

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Fake News and Brexit doublethink:

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...cerns-12025718

The UK would be free to continue its own work on vaccine development ..

I wonder who the "Whitehall source" is? All together now ..

It's not Mr K!
Is it Mr C?

[Russ]

Going back to the subject of gyms, masks don’t affect oxygen saturation so I don’t see any issue with people working out with them on, other than possibly the discomfort.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Fake News and Brexit doublethink:

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...cerns-12025718

The UK would be free to continue its own work on vaccine development ..

I wonder who the "Whitehall source" is? All together now ..

It wasn't about whether the vaccine development would be allowed. So the comment from the EU is nonsense.
Link

In his letter, Sir Tim said the UK would not participate because the "UK would be required to stop its negotiations with manufacturers with which the EU launched negotiations".He said the commission had also confirmed it was "not possible for the UK to have a role in the governance shaping decisions on which manufacturers to negotiate with, or the price, volume and delivery schedule negotiated".

We WOULDN'T have been allowed to independently negotiate with ANY vaccine suppliers. It would be only the EU allowed to do that. Theoretically even the likes of Germany and France wouldn't be allowed to independently negotiate anything.
From the actual letter.

We are committed to building on this shared endeavour and believe there are other areas where we should look to strengthen our collaboration. This could include sharing of information on promising vaccine candidates; negotiations with vaccine manufacturers; vaccine trials; manufacturing investment and capacity building; mitigations to supply chain bottlenecks and other delivery risks such as global trade disruptions.

So we're NOT ignoring the EU completely.

Official EU Press release

In order to support companies in the swift development and production of a vaccine, the Commission will enter into agreements with individual vaccine producers on behalf of the Member States. In return for the right to buy a specified number of vaccine doses in a given timeframe, the Commission will finance part of the upfront costs faced by vaccines producers.

Securing the production of vaccines in the EU and sufficient supplies for its Member States through Advance Purchase Agreements with vaccine producers via the Emergency Support Instrument. Additional financing and other forms of support can be made available on top of such agreements.

We already have supply deals in place.
Eg

Meanwhile, Oxford University signed a global licensing agreement with AstraZeneca for the manufacturing and commercialisation of their vaccine candidate. If the vaccine is successful, AstraZeneca will produce up to 30 million doses by September for people in the UK.
The agreement is for the pharmaceutical company to deliver a total of 100 million doses.
Business Secretary Alok Sharma said: “Our scientists are at the forefront of vaccine development. This deal with AstraZeneca means that if the Oxford University vaccine works, people in the UK will get the first access to it, helping to protect thousands of lives.

The UKs deal was in place a month before the EUs.
Link

AstraZeneca has reached an agreement with Europe’s Inclusive Vaccines Alliance (IVA), spearheaded by Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands, to supply up to 400 million doses of the University of Oxford’s COVID-19 vaccine, with deliveries starting by the end of 2020.

So the UK deal is an initial 30m doses by September and the EU one is starting by the end of this year. Which is better?

We're ahead of the EU in making the deals, why would we surrender those deals?
Link

Mr Hancock confirmed the UK was already putting in contracts with vaccine developers around the world, and was engaging will all 10 of the development projects regarded as the frontrunners, including those at Oxford University and Imperial College London.

"Up to" 30 million, not an initial 30 million...

Latest findings from the Department of the Bleeding Obvious ... country which voted to stop subcontracting its affairs to a supranational organisation, stops subcontracting its affairs to a supranational organisation.

Seriously, people - are we going to do the EU angle with any and every international trade/regulation story that comes up, forever? I try to avoid saying this, but really, please get over it.

HMG is not throwing its lot in with the EU scheme for the very reasons we left the EU in the first place - being in, prevents us continuing to act in our own interests even where they may diverge from those of the EU. And while we remain in the transition phase, throwing our lot in with the EU is even worse because it weds us to their decisions without the ability to influence them. As a general rule we shouldn’t be opting in to anything the EU does unless and until we’re on a post-transition treaty footing with them, that assures us *if* we participate in one of their schemes, we have fair and reasonable input into how it works. If that’s too much for the EU and no treaty is possible, then we go our own way, do our own thing, and for goodness sake can we stop going over this confected outrage every time.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Hugh

"Up to" 30 million, not an initial 30 million...

It certainly doesn't mean just half a dozen. Whatever it is, it's still a lot better than the EUs "deliveries starting by the end of 2020". The other important aspect is ,"people in the UK will get the first access to it,". If they can only produce 29m by September, the UK gets all of that 29m? I should imagine, if a working vaccine is found, the methods of manufacture will be released, and countries all around the World will also be able to make it.

Just been out for a walk along my local sea front. No one is socially distancing except me. However where they have to to get into eateries/cafes they are quite happy to do so..But I did notice that numbers are low for a sunny summer Saturday.

[Carth]

Coronavirus: Mathon farm workers isolating after 73 cases

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ester-53381802

Up to 200 workers have been told to self-isolate on the farm where they pick crops after 73 colleagues tested positive for Covid-19.

Vegetable producers A S Green and Co, in Herefordshire, has gone into lockdown after the positive tests.

Food and other essential supplies are being delivered to the farm, where the workers have been segregated into the mobile homes they live in.

Herefordshire Council, which has organised the supply of deliveries, believes the outbreak is "contained" on the farm.

[jfman]

I can see Boris and his appeal for home workers to go back to the office falling on deaf ears.

---------- Post added at 18:12 ---------- Previous post was at 17:06 ----------

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...study-suggests

Oh dear...

“Another nail in the coffin for herd immunity”