UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

That's a side issue.

Why are we, having decided to take your stance, undermining the terms and conditions of hard working nurses? Why aren't we training our unemployed?

Why can foreigners come for nurses jobs and drive down wages but not yours or mine?

How are they driving down the wages of nurses? The pay levels are set nationally and by a pay body.



Much of the shortages are contrived in the sense that minimum staffing levels were brought in, when they weren't apparently needed before. Overnight a massive increase in shortages appeared from nowhere.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

How are they driving down the wages of nurses? The pay levels are set nationally and by a pay body.

Much of the shortages are contrived in the sense that minimum staffing levels were brought in, when they weren't apparently needed before. Overnight a massive increase in shortages appeared from nowhere.

All wages are set by someone in order to fill vacancies. The fact it’s a national body is a red herring.

However rather than pay the going rate we want to undercut our own population. Taking back control indeed.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Much of the shortages are contrived in the sense that minimum staffing levels were brought in, when they weren't apparently needed before. Overnight a massive increase in shortages appeared from nowhere.

Yep, moving the goalposts is a common scenario where things have turned for the worse.

My cholesterol level was 'suddenly' higher than it has been for 30 years when they changed the tolerance levels

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

All wages are set by someone in order to fill vacancies. The fact it’s a national body is a red herring.

However rather than pay the going rate we want to undercut our own population. Taking back control indeed.

Agreed. In fact, we penalised our own aspiring Nurses by taking away their bursary and forcing them to take out loans. We also ensured that they cannot afford to live in our Capital city:

Warning nurses need to earn extra £10,500 ‘to afford London rent’

Those behind the report said that, as a result, nurse median wages would need to increase by roughly £10,500 a year for current median rents to be deemed affordable.

In addition, the report highlighted that rent in the South East of England accounted for 34% of nurses’ and midwives’ salaries and 32% in the East.

It said: “On an occupational basis, many key workers such as nurses and teachers cannot afford the rents charged in areas such as London and the South East.”

[Carth]

People having to pay 'exorbitant' rent isn't the fault of the people paying their wages.

High rent is the 'supply & demand' of the rental housing market.

Do you not think that road sweepers, shop assistants, bus drivers etc etc are paying rents out of proportion to their wages?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

You don’t need to know - if you offer higher wages and better terms and conditions it stands to reason you’ll get more applicants.

Now we need to reduce the pay and working conditions of GPs?

Utterly astonishing.

Women back to the kitchens?

What a truly progressive future you’ve outlined here.

Still doesn't answer the question of which other high paying jobs they are moving into.


It is widely acknowledged that Labour was too generous with the new GP contracts. How many other people can afford at such a relatively young age(eg in their 40s) to work part-time and maintain their standard of living.
Link from 2007.

Family doctors negotiating last year's pay contract were stunned to be offered such a lucrative deal, it has been revealed.
GP leaders could not believe their luck when ministers told them they would be able to opt out of working evenings and weekends.
...
Overall the contract, which started in 2004, has seen pay increase by 60 per cent in three years to more than £100,000.
Health experts said the comments showed that doctors were being paid too much for too little work, while opposition parties lambasted government "incompetence".

I was just pointing out that actual experience and concerns of somebody involved in training doctors at the time, at Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Birmingham.



What proportion of the part-time GPs are female?

The King's Fund reported only 22 per cent planned to work full time as a GP within a year of completing their training.
...
Questioned about their long-term career goals by the King's Fund, just one in 20 trainees intended to be working full-time as a GP ten years after finishing training.

How is that meant to help with GP shortages?


Becoming a nurse(or doctor) shouldn't be driven purely by money or status. That would attract the wrong people.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Carth

People having to pay 'exorbitant' rent isn't the fault of the people paying their wages.

High rent is the 'supply & demand' of the rental housing market.

Do you not think that road sweepers, shop assistants, bus drivers etc etc are paying rents out of proportion to their wages?

And that is due to the housing crisis which has been the result of poor government housing policy over the past few decades don't you agree?..

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Agreed. In fact, we penalised our own aspiring Nurses by taking away their bursary and forcing them to take out loans. We also ensured that they cannot afford to live in our Capital city:

Warning nurses need to earn extra £10,500 ‘to afford London rent’

Nurses argued for degree level training, so why should they be subject to student loans in the same way as students in other subjects are? As Martin Lewis keeps trying to point out, most students pay little or nothing off their student loans. They are not loans in the general context.

Under the "supply and demand" principle, aren't those higher rents a result of having enough people that can pay them? If there weren't enough people who could afford it, the rents would have to drop.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Under the "supply and demand" principle, aren't those higher rents a result of having enough people that can pay them? If there weren't enough people who could afford it, the rents would have to drop.

I'd imagine the choice of paying what is asked or living on the street is an easy one to make

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Carth

People having to pay 'exorbitant' rent isn't the fault of the people paying their wages.

High rent is the 'supply & demand' of the rental housing market.

Do you not think that road sweepers, shop assistants, bus drivers etc etc are paying rents out of proportion to their wages?

Indeed, but carries through to decisions made based on the employment opportunities available. If a nurses salary isn’t competitive people will do something else.

However rather than pay the going rate, determined by supply and demand, the Government wants to plug the gap with foreigners!

---------- Post added at 13:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:47 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

Nurses argued for degree level training, so why should they be subject to student loans in the same way as students in other subjects are? As Martin Lewis keeps trying to point out, most students pay little or nothing off their student loans. They are not loans in the general context.

Under the "supply and demand" principle, aren't those higher rents a result of having enough people that can pay them? If there weren't enough people who could afford it, the rents would have to drop.

Our entire point is that other employment opportunities (e.g. those that can pay the rent or get a mortgage) are better. However rather than pay the rate to attract people we are going to import labour and exacerbate the housing crisis. I didn’t see that on the side of a bus.

“Drive down wages, drive up living costs.”

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Carth

People having to pay 'exorbitant' rent isn't the fault of the people paying their wages.

High rent is the 'supply & demand' of the rental housing market.

Do you not think that road sweepers, shop assistants, bus drivers etc etc are paying rents out of proportion to their wages?

Originally Posted by jfman

Indeed, but carries through to decisions made based on the employment opportunities available. If a nurses salary isn’t competitive people will do something else.

Hasn't in any way shown how/why road sweepers, shop assistants and bus drivers can afford their rent

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Carth

Hasn't in any way shown how/why road sweepers, shop assistants and bus drivers can afford their rent

That’s irrelevant to the point I’m making. They could have wealthy partners, huge inheritances, drug dealing, benefit fraud or prostitution for all I know.

We have an under-supply of nurses. Rather than pay more (as the employment market dictates) we are deciding to import cheap labour from overseas rather than upskill British workers into higher paying jobs.

It’s absolutely scandalous.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by jfman

That’s irrelevant to the point I’m making. They could have wealthy partners, huge inheritances, drug dealing, benefit fraud or prostitution for all I know.

We have an under-supply of nurses. Rather than pay more (as the market dictates) we are deciding to import cheap labour from overseas rather than upskill British workers into higher paying jobs.

So much for British jobs for British workers...

[Carth]

Originally Posted by denphone

So much for British jobs for British workers...

Can't have that and immigration at the same time

---------- Post added at 14:47 ---------- Previous post was at 14:45 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

That’s irrelevant to the point I’m making. They could have wealthy partners, huge inheritances, drug dealing, benefit fraud or prostitution for all I know.

so could nurses and junior doctors

[jfman]

Originally Posted by denphone

So much for British jobs for British workers...

There's a real risk that, as the largest employer in the country, if the NHS went down this route it might make people question what the point of Brexit is at all if the little guy still gets his/her job undermined by imported labour.

It wasn't all so the rich could avoid an EU tax directive, was it?