Brexit

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Or you could look at it from the principle of carrying out the wish expressed by the electorate. That is democracy and not extremist at all.

The extremists could be said to those who are seeking to overturn the democratic vote.

Or we are carrying out the will of the most vocal section of a minority of the electorate, if we really cared about the democratic will everyone eligible should've been made to vote and the options for leaving fully covered as although a sizable number probably did vote for no deal I doubt they all did and what's certain is no one campaigned for a no deal exit, why the people who told these whoppers aren't being held to account is beyond me.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Or we are carrying out the will of the most vocal section of a minority of the electorate, if we really cared about the democratic will everyone eligible should've been made to vote and the options for leaving fully covered as although a sizable number probably did vote for no deal I doubt they all did and what's certain is no one campaigned for a no deal exit, why the people who told these whoppers aren't being held to account is beyond me.

Those that didn't vote either didn't care or didn't understand the consequences, so I don't see the point in a compulsory vote, not that I object to that priciple, which is applied in Australia, for example.

As for the no deal Brexit, I feel sure that most Brexiteers did actually vote for that, although this cannot be proved one way or another.

It certainly appears that a growing number of people are now calling for a no deal Brexit to get it done and dusted, so your second point is moot.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Or you could look at it from the principle of carrying out the wish expressed by the electorate. That is democracy and not extremist at all.

The extremists could be said to those who are seeking to overturn the democratic vote.

Not sure what thread you are reading but this specific post sequence relates to the political leaning of the Conservative Party membership.

So getting back to the subject:

https://leave.eu/deselect-these-shameful-tory-mps/

Thanks to Leave.EU’s hugely successful campaign to make the Conservatives conservative again, 25,000 new members joined the Party over the summer. It’s time to make the most of those gains.

Here's the engine driving the new extremist agenda within the Conservative Party membership.

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:52 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

As for the no deal Brexit, I feel sure that most Brexiteers did actually vote for that, although this cannot be proved one way or another.

And here you have it Ladies & Gentlemen, look how far the termites have spread.

The perversion of the past is complete. History is revised and the new reality is set. The People voted for pain ...

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Not sure what thread you are reading but this specific post sequence relates to the political leaning of the Conservative Party membership.

So getting back to the subject:

https://leave.eu/deselect-these-shameful-tory-mps/





Here's the engine driving the new extremist agenda within the Conservative Party membership.

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:52 ----------



And here you have it Ladies & Gentlemen, look how far the termites have spread.

The perversion of the past is complete. History is revised and the new reality is set. The People voted for pain ...

The people voted for leaving the EU. They left it to the politicians to sort out the how.

I am tempted to say there's no gain without pain, but I do not buy the apocalyptic views of the remainers, who seem to be a pretty negative bunch to me.

[papa smurf]

No-deal Brexit MAPPED: The 4 EU countries with the most to lose - and how UK will fare

According to a study by the University of Leuven, there will be close to two million job loses across the continent as a result of a no-deal Brexit. New trade barriers, which would come into force instantly on November 1, will deliver a brutal hit to businesses. The data reveals that both Britain and its former EU partners will suffer the consequences if the bloc’s leaders and the next prime minister fail to reach a deal. Brussels’ economy will shrink by 1.54 percent in the immediate aftermath if leaders fail to convince Theresa May’s successor to support her hated divorce deal, whereas Britain’s GDP would take a 4.4 percent hit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11...-Brexit-latest

[denphone]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The people voted for leaving the EU. They left it to the politicians to sort out the how.

I am tempted to say there's no gain without pain, but I do not buy the apocalyptic views of the remainers, who seem to be a pretty negative bunch to me.

A extremely exaggerated generalisatiion of those who voted remain as is those who paint those who voted for leave as some sort of extremists as well.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by denphone

A extremely exaggerated generalisatiion of those who voted remain as is those who paint those who voted for leave as some sort of extremists as well.

I should have clarified that it was the remainers who are trying to overturn the democratic vote that I was referring to.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I should have clarified that it was the remainers who are trying to overturn the democratic vote that I was referring to.

Is every General Election trying to overturn the democratic vote of the last GE? Things change; it's been over 3 years since the vote in which less than a third of the population voted for Brexit based on a pack of lies.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Is every General Election trying to overturn the democratic vote of the last GE? Things change; it's been over 3 years since the vote in which less than a third of the population voted for Brexit based on a pack of lies.

General Election = choose 650 people who in turn take decisions about the government of the country for a period of time not exceeding 5 years.
Referendum = a proposition in favour or against a specific course of action.

Pardon me if I fail to see any congruency between the two, beyond the superficial similarity in marking an X on a piece of paper.

I know it brings you out in hives to be confronted with this truth, but they aren’t the same, the cyclical nature of general elections does not legitimise the demand to re-run the referendum and Parliament had the option of requiring a quorum of the entire electorate, which it decided not to exercise.

On the contrary, the nature of a referendum being to determine a course of action, it is absurd to talk about reversing the result when the action mandated by the result has yet to be implemented. Nothing has changed since 2016, except that those who always planned to try to overturn the democratic result have been working tirelessly to present the result as unachievable in order to justify their demands.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Chris

General Election = choose 650 people who in turn take decisions about the government of the country for a period of time not exceeding 5 years.
Referendum = a proposition in favour or against a specific course of action.

Pardon me if I fail to see any congruency between the two, beyond the superficial similarity in marking an X on a piece of paper.

I know it brings you out in hives to be confronted with this truth, but they aren’t the same, the cyclical nature of general elections does not legitimise the demand to re-run the referendum and Parliament had the option of requiring a quorum of the entire electorate, which it decided not to exercise.

On the contrary, the nature of a referendum being to determine a course of action, it is absurd to talk about reversing the result when the action mandated by the result has yet to be implemented. Nothing has changed since 2016, except that those who always planned to try to overturn the democratic result have been working tirelessly to present the result as unachievable in order to justify their demands.

If nothing has changed why the paranoia about a vote confirming the deal (if there is one) ? Or if no deal is acceptable? Different types of deals or no deal could mean very different things.

The paranoia about another vote is because you know what the outcome would be. Not even a referendum is forever. If the people still want to leave, when they know exactly what is on offer, then fair enough. At the moment they don't know, or have any say on our type of exit. At the moment its a jump down a big black hole with Capt. Idiot at the helm.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Is every General Election trying to overturn the democratic vote of the last GE? Things change; it's been over 3 years since the vote in which less than a third of the population voted for Brexit based on a pack of lies.

You (and others) seem to forget that Cameron went to the EU with a shopping list of reforms and came back with "very thin gruel" to quote JRM. The public definitely had that in mind at the Referendum.

Originally Posted by Mr K

If nothing has changed why the paranoia about a vote confirming the deal (if there is one) ? Or if no deal is acceptable? Different types of deals or no deal could mean very different things.

The paranoia about another vote is because you know what the outcome would be. Not even a referendum is forever. If the people still want to leave, when they know exactly what is on offer, then fair enough. At the moment they don't know, or have any say on our type of exit. At the moment its a jump down a big black hole with Capt. Idiot at the helm.

The objection to another vote is its delegitimising effect on the use of referendums as a means of settling constitutional questions in our otherwise parliamentary system.

Nobody here is fooled by the attempt to frame it as a “confirmatory vote” - it is what the continuity remain campaign has planned for it to be ever since they lost the vote in 2016: an attempt to rerun and overturn the original result. The giveaway is the way “no Brexit” is invariably, casually suggested as the alternative to “accept the deal”.

For those of us who genuinely pursued Brexit as a means of restoring democratic control of all areas of our national life, the democratic conduct of referendums is genuinely important. In this case conducting the referendum democratically means implementing the result. If we don’t like the result - I.e. us being outside the EU, not us being told for 3 years how awful it would be if we were - then, and only then, is it democratic to hold another vote. At this stage nothing, absolutely nothing, has actually changed.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You (and others) seem to forget that Cameron went to the EU with a shopping list of reforms and came back with "very thin gruel" to quote JRM. The public definitely had that in mind at the Referendum.

We might be begging for that 'thin gruel' post Brexit. The public were fed up generally with their lot and wanted to protest. It was more to do with austerity and 6 years of Tories, than the EU. The status quo is always a hard sell, change even if it for the worse an easier sell. The Union will break up as a result of this, leaving an insignificant Divided Kingdom.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Or we are carrying out the will of the most vocal section of a minority of the electorate, if we really cared about the democratic will everyone eligible should've been made to vote and the options for leaving fully covered as although a sizable number probably did vote for no deal I doubt they all did and what's certain is no one campaigned for a no deal exit, why the people who told these whoppers aren't being held to account is beyond me.

Surely the GE in 2017 showed the majority voted for some sort of deal, otherwise UKIP would be the party in government?

Originally Posted by denphone

A extremely exaggerated generalisatiion of those who voted remain as is those who paint those who voted for leave as some sort of extremists as well.

According to the result 82% of the electorate voted to support leaving at that point and what was claimed by the Leave supporters. Yet this is not really what can be extrapolated from the GE result, as people voted Labour to stop the Tories and vice versa, with Brexit a secondary consideration.

Seems what people voted for in 2016 must be set in stone for ever and ever, even though what sort of Leave is not clear based on the promises of the Leave campaign. We are told the Government leaflet gave us the facts when it comes to leaving with no deal, but the the problems caused by doing this and outlined in that same leaflet are dismissed as "project fear". Funny that?

---------- Post added at 07:56 ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

We might be begging for that 'thin gruel' post Brexit. The public were fed up generally with their lot and wanted to protest. It was more to do with austerity and 6 years of Tories, than the EU. The status quo is always a hard sell, change even if it for the worse an easier sell. The Union will break up as a result of this, leaving an insignificant Divided Kingdom.

Exactly.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You have made a disgraceful and highly offensive remark. I am a Conservative Party member and you have labelled me as "extremist". At least you have sort of met me on this forum and can form an opinion of the degree of extremism (what is "extremism"?) that I represent - but you will need to explain that.

I do want to make it very clear that I do not hold you in any way representative of the membership polled by YouGov. Your posts and argument are rational & cogent and you have a sense of fairness and pragmatism that seems at odds with what this survey reveals.

I can see how the membership could have veered to the right with the influx of the ex-UKIP members. The challenge, like with Labour, it to bring the consensus back to the rational centre ground again.

---------- Post added at 09:33 ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 ----------

Originally Posted by Angua

Surely the GE in 2017 showed the majority voted for some sort of deal, otherwise UKIP would be the party in government?

You are correct, 54% voted for parties that ruled out No-Deal.