Brexit

[nomadking]

The gurgling sound coming from the Houses of Parliament and Number 10, is the sound of our democracy being flushed down the toilet.

Originally Posted by nomadking

The gurgling sound coming from the Houses of Parliament and Number 10, is the sound of our democracy being flushed down the toilet.

Nah, there has been thunder and rain quite a bit in London today. Hailstones too. It's probably that.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The gurgling sound coming from the Houses of Parliament and Number 10, is the sound of our democracy being flushed down the toilet.

I think it's all the unicorns commiserating their imminent demise in the bar.

[jfman]

I actually think today could demonstrate the strength of our democracy. In fact our, what could be considered outdated, traditions could save us from populism in a way that a different system (e.g a republic) could not.

Originally Posted by jfman

I actually think today could demonstrate the strength of our democracy. In fact our, what could be considered outdated, traditions could save us from populism in a way that a different system (e.g a republic) could not.

Today's bill isn't really that significant. May has already indicted she'll ask for an extension but bill or no bill the main issue is the EU granting it.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Damien

Today's bill isn't really that significant. May has already indicted she'll ask for an extension but bill or no bill the main issue is the EU granting it.

Parliament doesn’t trust her. That’s the real significance. If it did trust her you are correct, this legislation wouldn’t be necessary. It could also put Parliament in control of future extensions, if required.

The EU will allow an extension. Every passing day makes a second referendum and ultimately remaining more likely. There’s no reason for the EU to arbitrarily guillotine the process - if they wanted to they could/would have done it on March 29th.

---------- Post added at 23:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:40 ----------

Majority of 1 at Third Reading. Ooft.

[Dave42]

so no deal on 12th April legally off table when bill passes lords tomorrow

Originally Posted by Dave42

so no deal on 12th April legally off table when bill passes lords tomorrow

But not really - you still don't get it - EU Law trounces UK Law - the Speaker, John Bercow pretty much said this last week - so if any of the 27 EU member States, say no, we are out without a deal. The Bill still has to receive Royal Assent and Theresa May, has every right to advise the Queen not to give Royal Assent.

As Damian said - it’s pretty clear she’s going to keep asking for extensions anyway. It’s also pretty clear the Commons doesn’t trust her. Once upon a time the symbolic value of this would have been immense. Today it’s just another government defeat over Brexit.

The main difference here is that it is a full-blown Bill so it has to go to the Lords. Their Lordships don’t like to be rushed and they don’t like bad law. So it is by no means certain the remainder of its passage will be swift.

I would also be a little more careful about putting so much faith in the EU to be as keen to keep kicking the can down the road as May has been. There comes a point where our continued presence begins to seriously impact on the purity of the project. They won’t hang on for a deal at any cost and with two rounds of indicative votes passed and a third voted down, it is clear that neither Parliament nor Government wants a second referendum. So where’s the incentive for the EU27 to keep holding on for one?

[Dave42]

Originally Posted by Mick

But not really - you still don't get it - EU Law trounces UK Law - the Speaker, John Bercow pretty much said this last week - so if any of the 27 EU member States, say no, we are out without a deal. The Bill still has to receive Royal Assent and Theresa May, has every right to advise the Queen not to give Royal Assent.

the EU will give us a extension that want us in EU


Faisal Islam
✔
@faisalislam
· 24m

Replying to @faisalislam
Now it goes to the House of Lords tomorrow where it is expected to pass in one day... speaker says it doesn’t need Royal Consent - seems likely to become Act...

Mark Francois says this is a “constitutional outrage” - “forgive them father for they know not what they do”

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Dave42

so no deal on 12th April legally off table when bill passes lords tomorrow

Yes, although Theresa said it was not an option yesterday nobody believes her!

I’m curious about subsection 7 (in the as introduced version - not sure if it got tidied up) but would it require the PM to move a motion every time the EU came up with a a new extension date? It could be never ending, if so.

Originally Posted by jfman

I actually think today could demonstrate the strength of our democracy. In fact our, what could be considered outdated, traditions could save us from populism in a way that a different system (e.g a republic) could not.

I don't know how you can possibly say today is a day of strength for democracy, that is utter nonsense - for a start, the Bill has been devised to try scupper the Democratic vote of 2016, you know the vote where you lost.

Remain lost that vote so how you can say Democracy wins is beyond me - it is utter bollocks.

Don't try come back and argue with me on this. There is a lot of very unhappy people with this shambles undertaken today, that we have people who stood on Election Manifestos to honour the Democratic decision taken in 2016 and they have lied through their teeth, that makes them total liars and makes a mockery of a Democratic institutions, this makes you happy because you are selfish, you want to Remain but you lost that vote, so no this is not a day of strength at all for Democracy, this pathetic Remain Parliament is stealing the decision taken from the people who won that vote.

Day of strength my arse.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mick

But not really - you still don't get it - EU Law trounces UK Law - the Speaker, John Bercow pretty much said this last week - so if any of the 27 EU member States, say no, we are out without a deal. The Bill still has to receive Royal Assent and Theresa May, has every right to advise the Queen not to give Royal Assent.

That’s a lot of “ifs”.

The more likely scenario is the EU will be happy to have us trundle along making net contributions of £1bn a month in a status not dissimilar to the Withdrawal Agreement anyway (which moved the ”serious” Brexit date to 31st December 2020).

The EU want us to remain, and are somewhat expert at undermining referendum outcomes they don’t agree with. The idea they’ll just force no deal is fanciful when their ideal outcome is closer than it’s been at any time since 23rd June 2016. Their other stable outcomes - the May deal, CM 2.0 are all realistic - yet there’s a huge Parliamentary majority, and shortly it’ll be written into statute, against no deal. As you know, only statute can override statute.

European Parliament elections are our problem, and actually could be an opportunity for everyone to get a protest vote out their system before a real election comes along.

Originally Posted by jfman

That’s a lot of “ifs”.

The more likely scenario is the EU will be happy to have us trundle along making net contributions of £1bn a month in a status not dissimilar to the Withdrawal Agreement anyway (which moved the ”serious” Brexit date to 31st December 2020).

The EU want us to remain, and are somewhat expert at undermining referendum outcomes they don’t agree with. The idea they’ll just force no deal is fanciful when their ideal outcome is closer than it’s been at any time since 23rd June 2016. Their other stable outcomes - the May deal, CM 2.0 are all realistic - yet there’s a huge Parliamentary majority, and shortly it’ll be written into statute, against no deal. As you know, only statute can override statute.

European Parliament elections are our problem, and actually could be an opportunity for everyone to get a protest vote out their system before a real election comes along.

I couldn't give a shit if the EU want us to Remain - we voted out - this country voted to leave it - we should be leaving as democracy decided and your side lost but it's stealing the decision taken because it pathetically wants to remain in a corrupted and cancerous union.

[jfman]

We know you don’t give a shit, but they’re your last hope for no deal on April 12th (or at all).

I’ve outlined many times how and why Parliament is sovereign in this country. That’s exactly what we are witnessing in action. If you want anything else the system needs overhauled further, a “revolution” establishing a republic and an elected second chamber. Presidential elections and senate elections keeping everyone on their toes all year round.

Leave will undoubtedly now have to win a second referendum mainly because it failed to establish what Brexit should look like. Jacob Rees-Mogg was right when he said a confirmatory referendum should take place, and I for one look forward to it. I’d even be tempted to vote for May’s deal if it made it onto the ballot.