Brexit (Old)

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

This mythical ‘single vision’ is a mete diversion from the fact that the MPs have treacherously gone their own way, in most cases disrespecting the Referendum result.

Had TM done it differently from the outset, we would definitely be leaving the EU 29-March. She gave these MPs the sustenance for their treachery.

Far from a mere diversion it’s the most pertinent point. May has tried to reconcile the range the best way she can. Like the deal or not, it does address many concerns people have over the EU.

Davis, Fox and Johnson were all in the cabinet so all had opportunities to forge the negotiations as they saw fit. If the party could have found a common position they could have threatened her with a (party) vote of no confidence.

To say May is treacherous, or hasn’t been trying to bring together a range of leave positions, is ignoring the self evident truth of the situation. Nobody else has come up with a credible alternative for MPs to rally round.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by jfman

Far from a mere diversion it’s the most pertinent point. May has tried to reconcile the range the best way she can. Like the deal or not, it does address many concerns people have over the EU.

Davis, Fox and Johnson were all in the cabinet so all had opportunities to forge the negotiations as they saw fit. If the party could have found a common position they could have threatened her with a (party) vote of no confidence.

To say May is treacherous, or hasn’t been trying to bring together a range of leave positions, is ignoring the self evident truth of the situation. Nobody else has come up with a credible alternative for MPs to rally round.

Would throw in the anti GFA DUP having a confidence & supply arrangement and May was always on a hiding to nothing.

Her red lines at the start of the negotiations have caused problems as well.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Angua

Would throw in the anti GFA DUP having a confidence & supply arrangement and May was always on a hiding to nothing.

Her red lines at the start of the negotiations have caused problems as well.

Well yes, after the disastrous 2017 election they got a seat at the table. I did have them in mind further back when I referred to nationalists (UK variety).

Had May won decisively in 2017 my guess is that we’d be looking at a harder Brexit for Great Britain. I’d guess Northern Ireland would have maintained special status and alignment with, but outside of, the EU. I doubt many would have genuinely cared - the people in the North voted to remain and even those that voted to leave know that’d give them economic advantage being both inside the UK politically and with single market access economically. Unfortunately the few who cared were key to winning votes in the HoC.

[1andrew1]

The Magic Money Tree is blooming again!

Brexit delay could cost millions in extra payments to ferry firms
Any delay to the UK leaving the EU could cost the government tens of millions in extra payments to keep its no-deal ferry contracts in place.
The extra costs will be a fresh political blow to the transport secretary, Chris Grayling, after the collapse of one contract with an operator that had no ferries and a lawsuit by Eurotunnel that was settled out of court at a cost of £33m.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...chris-grayling

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Far from a mere diversion it’s the most pertinent point. May has tried to reconcile the range the best way she can. Like the deal or not, it does address many concerns people have over the EU.

Davis, Fox and Johnson were all in the cabinet so all had opportunities to forge the negotiations as they saw fit. If the party could have found a common position they could have threatened her with a (party) vote of no confidence.

To say May is treacherous, or hasn’t been trying to bring together a range of leave positions, is ignoring the self evident truth of the situation. Nobody else has come up with a credible alternative for MPs to rally round.

Good post, jfman. On those points, we can agree. Is this a record??

[Sephiroth]

I never said May had been treacherous. It was the MPs.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Angua

Would throw in the anti GFA DUP having a confidence & supply arrangement and May was always on a hiding to nothing.

Her red lines at the start of the negotiations have caused problems as well.

The red lines were put in place for a reason. They are what the leavers wanted and reflected the referendum result.

It was made very clear in the campaign, for example, that leaving would ensure we could make all our own laws and forge our own trade deals. Ruling out the belonging to the customs union achieves that. If we did not insist on those red lines, we would not be out of the EU and we would not be able to influence new EU legislation. Surely, that would be a backward step.

Someone should point that out to Corbyn, who seems to be totally confused and directionless on this issue.

---------- Post added at 12:31 ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The Magic Money Tree is blooming again!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...chris-grayling

The indecision of the House of Commons has a real cost to it, and if Brexit is delayed by another year or two, that cost will become considerable.

MPs need to get their acts together so we can leave with the minimum of further delay.

The ‘indecision’ was caused by lack of consultation - if there had been more involvement, there would have been a consensus reached, rather than a fait accompli presented to the House.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Good post, jfman. On those points, we can agree. Is this a record??

I need to go and lie down!

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

The ‘indecision’ was caused by lack of consultation - if there had been more involvement, there would have been a consensus reached, rather than a fait accompli presented to the House.

Indeed.

All the while valuable time has been lost for businesses to prepare. If we really wanted to go down the no-deal route we should have decided as quickly as possible to give businesses a lead in.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

The ‘indecision’ was caused by lack of consultation - if there had been more involvement, there would have been a consensus reached, rather than a fait accompli presented to the House.

You reckon? I think it would have been much better if the negotiations had been conducted in private, and then the results voted upon.

It's the open nature of the negotiations that has added fuel to the flames.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I never said May had been treacherous. It was the MPs.

Yet again you fail to grasp the very simple premise that MP’s are not delegates

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Yet again you fail to grasp the very simple premise that MP’s are not delegates

Having told the electorate that their referendum decision would be granted, MPs have a duty to implement it in the best way possible and which is in accordance with that vote. We all accept that MPs have a duty to do what they figure is best for the country and their constituents (which I think is your point) but a clear undertaking that the result of the referendum would be honoured cannot be ignored.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Having told the electorate that their referendum decision would be granted, MPs have a duty to implement it in the best way possible and which is in accordance with that vote. We all accept that MPs have a duty to do what they figure is best for the country and their constituents (which I think is your point) but a clear undertaking that the result of the referendum would be honoured cannot be ignored.

No, MPs have a duty to represent their constituents best interests. Which may well include a belief that Brexit has no economic benefit for their constituency, despite how their electorate voted in the referendum.

So you have Leave MPs representing constituencies that voted Remain. No one seems to hang them out to dry.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Yet again you fail to grasp the very simple premise that MP’s are not delegates

This is a straw man argument.

Nobody is contradicting the Burkean view of what an MP’s role and responsibilities should be. What many of us have done, repeatedly, is to point out that our MPs used the judgment they owe us to call a referendum and to promise to implement the result.

To argue that their failure to do so is in fact evidence of high principle at work is laughable.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Yet again you fail to grasp the very simple premise that MP’s are not delegates

Oh please. Delegates/representatives - never crossed my mind. The treachery is the simple matter of disrespecting and trying to thwart the Referendum result.