Brexit (Old)

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

An article in today’s Sunday Telegraph puts it rather well:

1. May has been treating the negotiations as political.
2. The EU has been treating the negotiations as theological.
3. Violating the theology (Brexit) is heresy and must be treated as such.

So I say:

Any Brit who sides with the EU’s approach needs to re-evaluate.

Any Brit who wants to remain under this theology and behaviour should clear off if they can’t accept the Referendum result.

Any Remainer who doesn’t agree that the EU approach is theological is entitled to their opinion, but is reminded of the Referendum result.

Macron is acting as if he is the new Merkel and that is worse because his country is well up shit creek and he should fix that first.

Jeez, why do you Remainers want to have any part of that?

It feels like voting to leave = jumping of a wall, only now that wall is actually 300 foot high, when everyone was sold the idea it was only 3 foot high.

In those circumstances must we all go along with jumping off that wall because the majority thought it was a good idea at the time? Or have enough of the majority changed their minds to stop this headlong rush over the edge?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

An article in today’s Sunday Telegraph puts it rather well:

1. May has been treating the negotiations as political.

May has been treating the negotiations like a large family arriving late for a flight and asking for special treatment.
Arriving tired and late at the airport, her family are still all arguing about the type of holiday they want. Her older son Boris wants a cycling holiday. The younger twins want a beach holiday whilst her husband Philip wants to stay at home, cut the roses and watch the golf.
She insists that the holiday company should provide them with a holiday that does all of the above, even though they've been trying to clarify what she wants for two years, but the family has been too busy arguing with itself to give an answer!

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

It feels like voting to leave = jumping of a wall, only now that wall is actually 300 foot high, when everyone was sold the idea it was only 3 foot high.

In those circumstances must we all go along with jumping off that wall because the majority thought it was a good idea at the time? Or have enough of the majority changed their minds to stop this headlong rush over the edge?

This seems to be a variant of the standard Remainer’s answer. The edge in my definition is neither 3 feet nor 300 feet high. It is the border between the UK’s sovereignty and EU dictatorship at the behest of Germany and France.

Are you the sort of Remainer that wants to be part of Macron’s vision? Are you content to work with someone who is showing his true nasty colours?

---------- Post added at 15:49 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

May has been treating the negotiations like a large family arriving late for a flight and asking for special treatment.
Arriving tired and late at the airport, her family are still all arguing about the type of holiday they want. Her older son Boris wants a cycling holiday. The younger twins want a beach holiday whilst her husband Philip wants to stay at home, cut the roses and watch the golf.

She insists that the holiday company should provide them with a holiday that does all of the above, even though they've been trying to clarify what she wants for two years, but the family has been too busy arguing with itself to give an answer!

My 3 enumerated points need to be taken together. By isolating #1, all you are doing is deriding May (instead of Macron which you should be doing). May is doing badly, but it has nevertheless brought out the worst in the EU and we should be pleased to get away from them.

So I ask you: do you accept the three axioms I have postulated and if not, why not?

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

This seems to be a variant of the standard Remainer’s answer. The edge in my definition is neither 3 feet nor 300 feet high. It is the border between the UK’s sovereignty and EU dictatorship at the behest of Germany and France.

Are you the sort of Remainer that wants to be part of Macron’s vision? Are you content to work with someone who is showing his true nasty colours?

---------- Post added at 15:49 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------



My 3 enumerated points need to be taken together. By isolating #1, all you are doing is deriding May (instead of Macron which you should be doing). May is doing badly, but it has nevertheless brought out the worst in the EU and we should be pleased to get away from them.

So I ask you: do you accept the three axioms I have postulated and if not, why not?

Those who still support leaving seem to have an odd faith in May and the government propped up by the DUP. Whilst I initially supported leave based on a lie and a wish to be rid of UKIP. I have zero faith in this government to prepare for Brexit, deal or no deal.

[djfunkdup]

Originally Posted by Angua

Those who still support leaving seem to have an odd faith in May and the government propped up by the DUP.

Ah done a survey have you ? Would you mind sharing the results please ?

Thanks Now

[Angua]

Originally Posted by djfunkdup

Ah done a survey have you ? Would you mind sharing the results please ?

Thanks Now

Well the last General election would indicate a preference for the Tories despite no one party getting a majority of seats.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

Those who still support leaving seem to have an odd faith in May and the government propped up by the DUP. Whilst I initially supported leave based on a lie and a wish to be rid of UKIP. I have zero faith in this government to prepare for Brexit, deal or no deal.

Be that as it may, do you accept the three axioms reproduced below?

1. May has been treating the negotiations as political.
2. The EU has been treating the negotiations as theological.
3. Violating the theology (Brexit) is heresy and must be treated as such.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Be that as it may, do you accept the three axioms reproduced below?

1. May has been treating the negotiations as political.
2. The EU has been treating the negotiations as theological.
3. Violating the theology (Brexit) is heresy and must be treated as such.

I do not accept they are axioms. Of these only no 1 is possible.

[Pierre]

The chips for the nations betrayal are being lined up, ready to be played.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...ng-870588.html

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

I do not accept they are axioms. Of these only no 1 is possible.

Then I'll postulate the list differently:

On the basis that #1 is possible (May has been treating the negotiations as political) and thus for the sake of this discussion, an axiom, do you accept the hypotheses as follows?

A. The EU has been treating the negotiations as theological.
B. The EU regards violating the theology (Brexit) is heresy and must be treated as such.




---------- Post added at 17:47 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

The chips for the nations betrayal are being lined up, ready to be played.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...ng-870588.html

If you have read Pierre's link you will have alighted on the following paragraph:

“This latest decision means the UK Parliament will get clear guidance from the European Court of Justice about the precise powers open to it when it is asked to vote on the Brexit deal."

That is precisely why we must leave the EU.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I have mentioned this before but it seems closer now: Brexit means Corbyn.

Labour 'could win 1.5m more votes' by backing Brexit referendum

If Corbyn can be persuaded or more likely made to change his position on Brexit, after all he is a arch Leaver but still a politician, Labour will win a GE if called.

May is desperate and realises this:

That’s why I’m calling on Labour to rule out a second referendum and not take us back to square one.

Just call me Mystic Meg

Brexit: Labour would back members on new vote, says Corbyn

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said he would be ready to back another EU referendum, if party members want one.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Then I'll postulate the list differently:

On the basis that #1 is possible (May has been treating the negotiations as political) and thus for the sake of this discussion, an axiom, do you accept the hypotheses as follows?

A. The EU has been treating the negotiations as theological.
B. The EU regards violating the theology (Brexit) is heresy and must be treated as such.




---------- Post added at 17:47 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------



If you have read Pierre's link you will have alighted on the following paragraph:

“This latest decision means the UK Parliament will get clear guidance from the European Court of Justice about the precise powers open to it when it is asked to vote on the Brexit deal."

That is precisely why we must leave the EU.

The EU have looked at the 750 treaties and are acting in accordance with them. This is not theological stance but a legal one (god/religion has nothing to do with this).

The government negotiators may want X, Y or Z, but this is not within the purview of the EU negotiators to give, as they are restricted and governed by the rules. Ergo the EU are not treating the negotiations as a theological.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

The EU have looked at the 750 treaties and are acting in accordance with them. This is not theological stance but a legal one (god/religion has nothing to do with this).

The government negotiators may want X, Y or Z, but this is not within the purview of the EU negotiators to give, as they are restricted and governed by the rules. Ergo the EU are not treating the negotiations as a theological.

I think you know full well that I was using a metaphor in the term "theological". It would have been nice if you had actually answered my question bearing that in mind.

Putting God aside, the treaties are their bible. They have been varied several times by member agreement and this negotiation allows the same opportunity.

In that metaphorical context, they are punishing the UK for its "heresy" - for wanting to leave their poxy Union. Do you agree with their desire to punish us? Macron's words to be taken literally.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I think you know full well that I was using a metaphor in the term "theological". It would have been nice if you had actually answered my question bearing that in mind.

Putting God aside, the treaties are their bible. They have been varied several times by member agreement and this negotiation allows the same opportunity.

In that metaphorical context, they are punishing the UK for its "heresy" - for wanting to leave their poxy Union. Do you agree with their desire to punish us? Macron's words to be taken literally.

If you mean ideological then use the word ideological.

They are still negotiating according to the EU rules, which has nothing to do with ideology or theology. Theoretically they could change the rules, but with 27 countries standing behind those rules they have no reason to change them for a country that wishes to leave the union under which those rules apply.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Be that as it may, do you accept the three axioms reproduced below?

1. May has been treating the negotiations as political.
2. The EU has been treating the negotiations as theological.
3. Violating the theology (Brexit) is heresy and must be treated as such.

1. Yes, her objectives are to save the Conservative Party and to try and get a deal better than was clear when she set her red lines.
2&3. I know it's Sunday but don't think religion is involved although I'm open to correction. The EU's objective is to make sure that members are to incentivise membership, ie a country is better off being a member of the EU than not being a member.