Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?

[rhyds]

Of course it depends where you are. There's no VM presence here for them to use and Vodafone now of course own Cable and Wireless.

[qasdfdsaq]

Sure VM don't have complete nationwide coverage and have to subcontract to BT in some areas but regardless their own fibre footprint reaches over 50% of the population so it's hardly a monopoly when most of the country's mobile services are provided without touching BT at all.

[MrIca]

They use both though, they use VM in areas where they have a presence (mostly their cabled areas). Most transmitters still rely solely on BT fibre though.

What it's trying to say is that Virgin Media and Vodafone (ex C&W) rely on linking back on to BT's fibre network at some point anyway.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by muppetman11

I read this today not sure if it will happen but interesting.

Garbage, will never happen and written by some one that obviously doesn't know the sector.

Vodafone (C&W) arguably has a bigger Core Fibre Network than BT and Virgin Media's isn't too shabby either.

Dark Fibre, or wholesale of fibre is freely undertaken between operators on commercial terms and is in no way equivalent to the access to the " last mile" which is what open reach was all about.

---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------

Originally Posted by rhyds

Of course it depends where you are. There's no VM presence here for them to use and Vodafone now of course own Cable and Wireless.

There's fibre speed.

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:40 ----------

Originally Posted by MrIca

They use both though, they use VM in areas where they have a presence (mostly their cabled areas). Most transmitters still rely solely on BT fibre though.

That's incorrect. MBNL uses VM small bits will use BT tails but the vast majority is VM

Vodafone used to use NTL (VM) then they moved to Global Crossing (level 3) then they bought C&W

VM has a vast nationwide network, yes they only provide broadband services to their " cabled" areas where they have Access Network but their core fibre network is huge.

What it's trying to say is that Virgin Media and Vodafone (ex C&W) rely on linking back on to BT's fibre network at some point anyway.

It's actually the other way around, VM and Vodafone will use the odd BT tail but only a few, and they use them to link into their own fibre networks not BT's

[MrIca]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Garbage, will never happen and written by some one that obviously doesn't know the sector.

Vodafone (C&W) arguably has a bigger Core Fibre Network than BT and Virgin Media's isn't too shabby either.

Dark Fibre, or wholesale of fibre is freely undertaken between operators on commercial terms and is in no way equivalent to the access to the " last mile" which is what open reach was all about.

---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------



There's fibre speed.

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:40 ----------



That's incorrect. MBNL uses VM small bits will use BT tails but the vast majority is VM

Vodafone used to use NTL (VM) then they moved to Global Crossing (level 3) then they bought C&W

VM has a vast nationwide network, yes they only provide broadband services to their " cabled" areas where they have Access Network but their core fibre network is huge.



It's actually the other way around, VM and Vodafone will use the odd BT tail but only a few, and they use them to link into their own fibre networks not BT's

I don't know how you can claim this though. I live in an urban area but I only see Virgin Media jointbox covers in about 60% of that area (I am including their core network and you're right I've seen Nynex ducting on main roads in areas they don't serve with the cable network.

Same can be said for Vodafone, I only see their jointbox covers and ducting in about half of the areas I work in (the jointbox covers are labelled Cable and Wireless, Norweb Comms, Scottish Telecom, Mercury-the list goes on but I know it is all Voda's now).

They MUST be using BT fibre in these areas unless Voda and VM have invisible ducting! For example, somewhere like North Wales-you only see BT ducting, it doesn't matter where you go.

As for them having a larger core network than BT's. Are you actually having a laugh? I can only assume you work in an office somewhere and have never been out in the field. BT have a vast, vast network of ducts that they can use to run fibre anywhere. You wouldn't believe how much fibre is in the BT network and has been for many years.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by MrIca

I don't know how you can claim this though. I live in an urban area but I only see Virgin Media jointbox covers in about 60% of that area (I am including their core network and you're right I've seen Nynex ducting on main roads in areas they don't serve with the cable network.

Unless you know the routes the core network takes then stumbling upon the chambers is unlikely.

Same can be said for Vodafone, I only see their jointbox covers and ducting in about half of the areas I work in (the jointbox covers are labelled Cable and Wireless, Norweb Comms, Scottish Telecom, Mercury-the list goes on but I know it is all Voda's now).

Same as above, Vodafone and it predecessors, don't have access networks so they don't have chambers on every corner everywhere. Just on their Core routes. Also in the case of C&W you missed off Energis, which like Norweb has the vast majority of its fibre overhead on its electricity pylon network.

Also everybody, except BT, already share their infrastructure. VM has fibre in Vodafone ducts, Level 3 ducts etc and vice- versa and have done for decades, they also lease dark fibres to each other on a commercial basis.

They MUST be using BT fibre in these areas unless Voda and VM have invisible ducting! For example, somewhere like North Wales-you only see BT ducting, it doesn't matter where you go.

I didn't say they didn't but it's a lot less than you might think, and it's not BTs core network they would use if at all possible but fibre tails in their access ducts.

Many remote masts are connected by micro wave links and not cables.

Other examples I can give are Cumbria for example, there's mobile masts fed in remote parts of Cumbria where the fibre is run along the west coast mainline, then a dig of a couple km to the mast.

Fed completely independent of BT. You only would see a few VM chambers, if they weren't grown over.

Other instances similar instances are masts fed from core fibre run along canal towpaths.

There are loads of solutions to feed masts without having to go to BT, and if you had a wide knowledge of the sector you would know that without going to the default " it must be BT " stance.

As for them having a larger core network than BT's. Are you actually having a laugh? I can only assume you work in an office somewhere and have never been out in the field.

You assume wrong, I've built and maintained VM's ( and forebears) networks for nigh on 20 years. I have intimate knowledge of its and other carriers fibre footprint.

[muppetman11]

Sky Seeks Code Powers to Support New UK PIA and SLU Broadband Trials

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[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Also in the case of C&W you missed off Energis, which like Norweb has the vast majority of its fibre overhead on its electricity pylon network. Also everybody, except BT, already share their infrastructure.

^^ This. Half* the fibre in this city is strung through two pairs of SSE pylons running up the A90

* Probably an exaggeration

[rhyds]

Regarding manhole covers I saw one marked "Bangor University Computer Servce" on a public street in Menai Brige. IIRC this is for the connection to Bangor Uni's Anglesey campus.

In other news Bala has now gone live for fibre orders. What's odd is that Bala has totally avoided getting ADSL2+. The speeds available are ADSLMax or FTTC.

As for my line, they've started digging out the new duct for the new cabinet outside the exchange.

[MrIca]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Unless you know the routes the core network takes then stumbling upon the chambers is unlikely.



Same as above, Vodafone and it predecessors, don't have access networks so they don't have chambers on every corner everywhere. Just on their Core routes. Also in the case of C&W you missed off Energis, which like Norweb has the vast majority of its fibre overhead on its electricity pylon network.

Also everybody, except BT, already share their infrastructure. VM has fibre in Vodafone ducts, Level 3 ducts etc and vice- versa and have done for decades, they also lease dark fibres to each other on a commercial basis.

I didn't say they didn't but it's a lot less than you might think, and it's not BTs core network they would use if at all possible but fibre tails in their access ducts.

Many remote masts are connected by micro wave links and not cables.

Other examples I can give are Cumbria for example, there's mobile masts fed in remote parts of Cumbria where the fibre is run along the west coast mainline, then a dig of a couple km to the mast.

Fed completely independent of BT. You only would see a few VM chambers, if they weren't grown over.

Other instances similar instances are masts fed from core fibre run along canal towpaths.

There are loads of solutions to feed masts without having to go to BT, and if you had a wide knowledge of the sector you would know that without going to the default " it must be BT " stance.



You assume wrong, I've built and maintained VM's ( and forebears) networks for nigh on 20 years. I have intimate knowledge of its and other carriers fibre footprint.

Interesting post I'll grant you that. Could you explain what you mean by "fibre tails in BT's access ducts". Surely if they have BT fibre connected to the mobile masts then it'll be going back to a BT exchange? (as they don't share ducts). Do you mean that at the exchange it then switches to another provider's core network?

I take your points though, but it is just strange as round here is very built up, VM have a cable network and ducting everywhere. There's C&W ducting right up the A-Road. However, I can think of a Vodafone mast that is fed by two overhead fibre cables from BT. There's another mast that's off the main road and also fed by overhead BT fibre. I can't fathom why they aren't just using C&W for these masts.

On the industrial estate near VM's hubsite a new duct was dug 100m or so to the nearest MBNL mast so I'm assuming they've now abandoned BT's fibre at that site at least.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by MrIca

Interesting post I'll grant you that. Could you explain what you mean by "fibre tails in BT's access ducts". Surely if they have BT fibre connected to the mobile masts then it'll be going back to a BT exchange? (as they don't share ducts). Do you mean that at the exchange it then switches to another provider's core network?

You have an "interconnect" or "meet-me" chambers where you have a handover. Virgin Media run a fibre to this chamber then it is jointed onto a BT fibre and run to wherever, a mast or an exchange. These tails are generally less than a km or two in length.

So the traffic doesn't go via the BT Core but straight onto the VM Core.

But there are other combinations as you suggest. In really outlawing areas where there is absolutely no way of getting onto any VM fibre, then the traffic can be taken back to the BT exchange and VM can pick it up from there.

I take your points though, but it is just strange as round here is very built up, VM have a cable network and ducting everywhere. There's C&W ducting right up the A-Road. However, I can think of a Vodafone mast that is fed by two overhead fibre cables from BT. There's another mast that's off the main road and also fed by overhead BT fibre. I can't fathom why they aren't just using C&W for these masts.

There can be lots of reasons, but just because there is BT fibre running into that mast doesn't mean that BT are the sole carrier serving that site. There may be other fibres running into there.

[MrIca]

Originally Posted by Pierre

You have an "interconnect" or "meet-me" chambers where you have a handover. Virgin Media run a fibre to this chamber then it is jointed onto a BT fibre and run to wherever, a mast or an exchange. These tails are generally less than a km or two in length.

So the traffic doesn't go via the BT Core but straight onto the VM Core.

But there are other combinations as you suggest. In really outlawing areas where there is absolutely no way of getting onto any VM fibre, then the traffic can be taken back to the BT exchange and VM can pick it up from there.



There can be lots of reasons, but just because there is BT fibre running into that mast doesn't mean that BT are the sole carrier serving that site. There may be other fibres running into there.

That's interesting. I thought I had noticed these "meet me" chambers and could follow the fibre tubes that looked like they then ended up in a VM chamber from the BT one but had no way of knowing for sure. Well if BT are doing that, then how would it help the industry if they just completely opened up their ducts? Surely it's a similar thing already?

[rhyds]

I know this is an ancient thread resurrection, but there's been some developments up at my folks' village.

Background: This village is pole fed from the next village that's two miles down the valley (which houses the telephone exchange). There are no cabinets or ducting at present.

In the last week or so, a subcontractor has installed a number of BT branded concrete manhole covers in the village. One at the foot of a "main" pole near an electricity supply pole and the others alongside a road verge heading up towards the outlying houses.

The contractor (Eastern European) mentioned to my (non technical) Mother that it was apparently fibre preparation works.

My question is, considering the current copper lines are all overhead, will the ducting installed be suitable to run all these lines underground plus fibre, or will they simply run microbore ducting for the fibre only?

[Ignitionnet]

They will run fibre to the premises using the existing poles and overhead lines.

[rhyds]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

They will run fibre to the premises using the existing poles and overhead lines.

Its fibre to the cab, not premises.