'Muslim Plot' To Take Over Schools Investigated

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

At no point did I disagree that it's the parents' choice or comment on how reasonable or otherwise it may be; I merely said that they were forcing the child into following the religion.

which is not what happens and it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise .I went to church as a child simply because my parents did it was natural and i can assure you there was no forcing involved ,i don't bother now ,i am not that religious but never in my life have i ever been forced to either follow religion or not .Most religious families are as mine where ,they simply follow religion no one is forced to do anything and your continued implication that parents around the country are forcing children against their will shows a complete lack of understanding of what actually happens.

You are making absolutely no sense but are blustering that because parents have the right to 'raise children as they see fit' or 'make decisions that they deem appropriate' they don't force their children into their religion when, by raising them as they see fit and making decisions that they deem appropriate they force their children to adhere to the same religion and indeed ensure they are labelled as such

You make it sound as though children are being dragged kicking and screaming and tied into church pews ,you really have no idea do you .There is a very real difference in raising children in a particular manner or "forcing" them to do something but i would suggest that you already know that

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Interesting post. Have another read of it. The boy is a Jehovah's Witness so doesn't get involved with many things that are actually more cultural than religious things now.

Really the boy is no more a Jehovah's Witness than he is a Labour, Conservative or UKIP voter. His parents are and are forcing their beliefs on him.

That's a debate for another time though, whether offending a parents' beliefs is an adequate reason for wanting exemption from their children. I have certainly never restricted my daughter from any activity, secular or religious, as it's important for her to try everything and at no point have I attempted to impress my own secularism or humanism on her. She can make up her own mind when she chooses to.

Just what I did with my two. I made it clear that they were and are free to follow their own course in regards to religion and that it is their choice to examine all beliefs and religions in a quest to seek some understanding of the universe.That just because I have one viewpoint does not make it the ONLY viewpoint.

---------- Post added at 16:05 ---------- Previous post was at 15:58 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

which is not what happens and it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise .I went to church as a child simply because my parents did it was natural and i can assure you there was no forcing involved ,i don't bother now ,i am not that religious but never in my life have i ever been forced to either follow religion or not .Most religious families are as mine where ,they simply follow religion no one is forced to do anything and your continued implication that parents around the country are forcing children against their will shows a complete lack of understanding of what actually happens.




You make it sound as though children are being dragged kicking and screaming and tied into church pews ,you really have no idea do you .There is a very real difference in raising children in a particular manner or "forcing" them to do something but i would suggest that you already know that

Just how different do you think atheists bring up their children compared to a couple who are religious?

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Just what I did with my two. I made it clear that they were and are free to follow their own course in regards to religion and that it is their choice to examine all beliefs and religions in a quest to seek some understanding of the universe.That just because I have one viewpoint does not make it the ONLY viewpoint.

You say all that and yet you want a secular education for everyone ,don't you see what's wrong with that ?

Just how different do you think atheists bring up their children compared to a couple who are religious?

What seems clear to me is how intolerant some Atheists are ,especially on this forum .There is Sirius insisting he is being forced into following a religion because a jehovas witness knocked on his door ,Ignitionnet is of the belief that religious people are forcing their children into religion against their will and you want to deprive people of educational choice altogether ,not very tolerant at all

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sirius

So you know who is behind a wooden door before you open it, let me know your secret of xray vision??. They have forced themselves on me because they have opened a gate and walked up my drive to knock on my door, which part of that is not forcing themselves on me ???

Not really my definition of forcing themselves on me, unless their foot is in the way if the door when it's closed.

---------- Post added at 16:26 ---------- Previous post was at 16:25 ----------

Originally Posted by weenie

I say very nicely no thank you when a sales rep knocks on my door, when a Jehovah Witness knocks on my door I take a leaflet and thank you, must go now as I'm going out. Once the door is closed I just bin the leaflet end off. All is happy well apart from the sales rep I suppose.

Bad move, they'll come back, never take their literature or engage then in conversation unless you want them to return at some point in my experience

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by martyh

Ignitionnet is of the belief that religious people are forcing their children into religion against their will and you want to deprive people of educational choice altogether ,not very tolerant at all

You've rather gone beyond comedy now to be quite honest and I have no desire to engage further in whatever passes as a discussion. My IQ is dropping every time I read and respond and I'm nearing a vegetative state. I even went as far as reading the entire conversation thread just to try and understand how it got to this point.

When you get the chance please do read back on what I actually wrote, rather than what you think I wrote, and what I was responding to rather than what you think I was responding to. Remember putting this in bold:

His parents are and are forcing their beliefs on him.

Look at what I referenced, and while you're at it read a dictionary.

The kid had no choice but to abide by his parents' beliefs, hence they were forced on him. It's really quite abundantly simple to most, apart apparently from those who suspend all logic when it comes to religion which admittedly can come with the territory to an extent.

EDIT: Incidentally I don't think there are religious people forcing children into religion against their will, I know there are. The kids aren't offered any alternative. This obviously doesn't apply to all religious people, that'd be an absurd generalisation along the lines of claiming:

Originally Posted by martyh

Good job it isn't then isn't it

In response to the statement:

Originally Posted by weenie

I do not think religion should be forced on anyone.

Parents force children into all sorts of things, every single day of the week, with good reason and with no ill effects. On the contrary, ill effects would often be the consequence of not asserting parental will over a child's.

I suspect Marty's objection stems from your decision to make a special case out of religious belief.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Chris

Parents force children into all sorts of things, every single day of the week, with good reason and with no ill effects. On the contrary, ill effects would often be the consequence of not asserting parental will over a child's.

I suspect Marty's objection stems from your decision to make a special case out of religious belief.

The post in question discussed a decision stemming from religious beliefs, I'm not sure what else I could have responded to, it was the only thing a parent forced a child to do mentioned in the thread?

Had that been his objection perhaps he would've been better served to state that rather than the frankly bizarre objection the man actually raised.

What you say is, of course, entirely accurate.

Originally Posted by Chris

Parents force children into all sorts of things, every single day of the week, with good reason and with no ill effects. On the contrary, ill effects would often be the consequence of not asserting parental will over a child's.

I suspect Marty's objection stems from your decision to make a special case out of religious belief.

Thank you Chris ,the use of the word 'force' and it's negative connotations is very objectionable imo .In the context of this discussion it is being used as a negative and something religious parents should be ashamed of

---------- Post added at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

. His parents are and are forcing their beliefs on him.

Originally Posted by martyh

Wrong ,the parents are bringing the child up as they see fit as is their right ,as was the right of your parents .Saying that parents force religion on children is like saying that parents force children to go to school or force children to behave themselves

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Had that been his objection perhaps he would've been better served to state that rather than the frankly bizarre objection the man actually raised.
.

Maybe you should use that massive IQ of yours and re read the thread .

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Sirius

So what do you say to the religious types that knock on my door on a Saturday morning telling me i need to repent, i know what i say to them . They are FORCING they beliefs on me by invading my home and my time and trust me i get it a lot because there is one of there halls about a mile down the road from me. I think the fact i told them i was a hired killer for the Queen that makes them think i need to be made to repent

They are not forcing anything on you.

If you object to them (and anyone else) knocking your door without invitation, legitimate purpose as part of their job you put up a sign saying as the homeowner/occupier you remove all implied right of access to anyone who does not have permission to be on your property.

If they or anybody else ignores that you have a valid case for trespass.

---------- Post added at 18:10 ---------- Previous post was at 18:01 ----------

On the subject of parents "imposing" or "forcing" their children in to a particular belief.

I've always said a religion or faith should be a personal choice. You cannot be made to believe anything, you simply decide for yourself whether or not it feels right. Yes people can try to influence you but the decision about whether it becomes 'part' of your life is down to the individual. And this is why I disagree with the way some religions (for example Catholicism) have the parents deciding that the child 'is' part of it. I was brought up as a Catholic, my parents made that decision for me however I got to a certain age and realised I didn't have a say in whether or I believed.

At no point am I ever going to say people shouldn't bring their children up that way, I simply disagree with it.

However as parents we have the absolute right and expectation to bring our children up the best way as we see fit. If I decide it's in my child's best interests to bring him/her up in a Christian lifestyle then no amount of New Atheist/Anti Religionist tripe is going to stop me.

[broadbandking]

If someone comes your house to try and tell you what you believe is wrong and you should believe what they believe that is them trying to FORCE their beliefs on to you.

Parents should allow them to explore there own reliefs but if parents raise them by their beliefs then that's FORCING them.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by broadbandking

If someone comes your house to try and tell you what you believe is wrong and you should believe what they believe that is them trying to FORCE their beliefs on to you.

If they come to your house they are not forcing anything - you have given an implied right of access unless you have stated otherwise. In any case I've never heard of anyone having someone come to their door and telling them their beliefs are "wrong". That sounds more like a stereotype used by anti-religionists.

If they come in your house they cannot be accused of forcing anything on you.

Originally Posted by broadbandking

Parents should allow them to explore there own reliefs but if parents raise them by their beliefs then that's FORCING them.

If a child is being brought up to be a Manchester United fan are the parents 'forcing' that on them? If not where do you draw the line?

[peanut]

Is there a difference between forcing and encouraging at such a low age?

I believe RE is a good thing to get some kind of knowledge of religion but they should keep religion out of schools.

I'm all for banning children from religion till a certain age. It'll never happen but just my opinion.

Originally Posted by peanut

Is there a difference between forcing and encouraging at such a low age?
.

they are polar opposites ,one implies a degree of ill will towards the child ,the other is a gentle push towards a way of thinking

[Qtx]

Originally Posted by peanut

I believe RE is a good thing to get some kind of knowledge of religion but they should keep religion out of schools.

I'm all for banning children from religion till a certain age. It'll never happen but just my opinion.

It should be covered under history lessons in my opinion. There is not a single reason why religion should have its own lessons. Another option is to replace RE lessons with a Morality, culture, world/life observations and philosophy type combined lesson

[Russ]

Originally Posted by peanut

I'm all for banning children from religion till a certain age. It'll never happen but just my opinion.

What if the child wants that religion?

Originally Posted by Qtx

There is not a single reason why religion should have its own lessons.

Of course there is. To educate about religions.