Ukraine on the verge of civil war!

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Osem

I dare say Salmond will pop up shortly claiming that an independent Scotland will be safe too...

Early days yet of course and let's pray that things don't escalate out of control but doesn't this just highlight how, when it comes to defence planning, the future's always uncertain?

Wish i had kept my old NBC suit now

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

We're getting the lead lined undies out.

Boy am I glad we're not too near something military.

What idiot decided to guarantee Ukrain's borders? I understand it was for them to abandon USSR's nukes but really. It's too much like Poland in WW2)

What do you mean near something military, they have made the armed forces so small now they could all be housed in just one barracks

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Hugh

It's OK - I live near Sheffield, and it's a Nuclear-Free zone....

Every mention of nuclear and Sheffield immediately makes me think of this movie.

How long before Putin decides to move in to 'protect' Russian-native citizens of Eastern Ukraine? We need to enforce some sanctions that will actually stick otherwise this is going to be Russia's modus operandi for the next decade. Incite disturbance, move in to calm things, call a urgent and immediate referendum and a new member has joined the Soviet Un...I mean the Russian Federation.

Reminds me of this bit of Yes, Prime Minister: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature..._d_vMKswE#t=24

The only positive sign is that China allowed the UN Security Council to vote against Russia. It would appear that Russia is risking isolation with their antics and if that's what Putin wants then so be it. Better than having Europe dance to his dictatorial tune. It's still shameful that we were left powerless over the assassination of a dissident on British soil.

[Ignitionnet]

To be fair it could be said that the west incited disturbance initially.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

To be fair it could be said that the west incited disturbance initially.

Only in the sense they offered the Ukraine a future which Russia opposed. This isn't incitement, theoretically it shouldn't have been Russia's choice. There is no evidence the protests were incited by the West as opposed to the incompetence and corrupted Government which they overthrew, one which had changed the constitution and tried to ban protests.

As far the EU trade deal goes then that is again a matter for the people of Ukraine and if they had rejected it there wouldn't have been armed troops marching into Kiev or war games on their borders. Either way it's not Russia's business with whom Ukraine wishes to do business.

I know it's in fashion to blame every single international incident on the ulterior motivations of the hypocritical West but there is a reason why most of the citizens on Russia's borders look towards the EU as opposed to the Russian Federation. A lot of them remember the last time and looking at how Russia have acted now it's clear that Russian Democracy is back in full flow.

[Sirius]

If this turned into a military incident, given the small size of the combined NATO forces it will be short and decisive. Warsaw pact 1 NATO 0

Years of forced reduction to save money and appease the libs, Tanks turned into razor blades, planes and ships scraped. Nato is no longer big enough to take on the still large armed forces that faces us from across the Russian border.,

[Ignitionnet]

I didn't for a moment suggest that Russia were blameless, however the reaction of the west to what occurred hasn't helped matters at all, neither has the indifference to the indiscretions of the new government.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

Originally Posted by Sirius

If this turned into a military incident, given the small size of the combined NATO forces it will be short and decisive. Warsaw pact 1 NATO 0

Years of forced reduction to save money and appease the libs, Tanks turned into razor blades and planes and ships scraped. Nato is no longer big enough to take on the still large armed forces that faces us from across the Russian border.,

A war with Russia was never going to be won by conventional forces, the plan was always to fall back on tactical nukes as the Russians would always massively outnumber NATO.

[Uncle Peter]

Putin's attitude towards the West is precisely the problem, because of what he is. The fact that we are still referred to as "The West" is the problem: the concept of us and them and a complete unwillingness to participate in the international community and the democratic responsibilities that come with that participation, no doubt to ensure that his arse stays in power. Using the Party's pollution of the gene pool in the region during the previous century is not a valid excuse for his actions.

When the gas revenue starts to dry up chairman Putin will be funding his military with printed money, re-instating collective farms and turning to the West again for food aid.

Younger Russians who look back (to the times before they were born) with fondness at the once "mighty" Rodina should be careful what they wish for.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I didn't for a moment suggest that Russia were blameless, however the reaction of the west to what occurred hasn't helped matters at all, neither has the indifference to the indiscretions of the new government.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------



A war with Russia was never going to be won by conventional forces, the plan was always to fall back on tactical nukes as the Russians would always massively outnumber NATO.

Tell me about it, i was in the forces at the hight of the cold war and i feel my grave would have been in the fulda gap after what would have been the biggest tank battle of all time.

---------- Post added at 20:02 ---------- Previous post was at 19:58 ----------

Originally Posted by Uncle Peter

Putin's attitude towards the West is precisely the problem, because of what he is. The fact that we are still referred to as "The West" is the problem: the concept of us and them and a complete unwillingness to participate in the international community and the democratic responsibilities that come with that participation, no doubt to ensure that his arse stays in power. Using the Party's pollution of the gene pool in the region during the previous century is not a valid excuse for his actions.

When the gas revenue starts to dry up chairman Putin will be funding his military with printed money, re-instating collective farms and turning to the West again for food aid.

Younger Russians who look back (to the times before they were born) with fondness at the once "mighty" Rodina should be careful what they wish for.

And the good old 5 year plan's

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Sirius

If this turned into a military incident, given the small size of the combined NATO forces it will be short and decisive. Warsaw pact 1 NATO 0

Years of forced reduction to save money and appease the libs, Tanks turned into razor blades, planes and ships scraped. Nato is no longer big enough to take on the still large armed forces that faces us from across the Russian border.,

It's not only that. By the time Nato or the EU have thrashed out something by way of a response, Putin's agents and footsoldiers are on the ground putting into practice the old expression that possession is nine tenths of the law. I don't see how we can realistically combat Putin's methodology as imposing meaningful sanctions on Russia could just make matters worse.

Originally Posted by Sirius

Tell me about it, i was in the forces at the hight of the cold war and i feel my grave would have been in the fulda gap after what would have been the biggest tank battle of all time.

---------- Post added at 20:02 ---------- Previous post was at 19:58 ----------



And the good old 5 year plan's

Think how I felt, 100 miles to the East of the West German border, surrounded by over 400,000 members of the GSFG and assorted hardware*.....

*not including the Ostdeutsch Tank and Motorised Rifle Divisions, PVO Strany, and Sov and Ostdeutsch Air Forces.......

Originally Posted by Osem

It's not only that. By the time Nato or the EU have thrashed out something by way of a response, Putin's agents and footsoldiers are on the ground putting into practice the old expression that possession is nine tenths of the law. I don't see how we can realistically combat Putin's methodology as imposing meaningful sanctions on Russia could just make matters worse.

We can't take back Crimea. Although I think Russia pretty much rigged the referendum as opponents would have been intimidated by the militia and Russians troops if they haven't left Crimea altogether already it is probably the case that the majority wish to be Russian and Ukrainian forces would meet serious resistance if they tried to retake it. Crimea is gone.

What we do need to do is send a forceful message that there are consequences to what Russia has done and they need to be serious enough so that Putin meets significant resistance within Russia should we be foolhardy enough to proceed with his new Russian union further.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

We can't take back Crimea. Although I think Russia pretty much rigged the referendum as opponents would have been intimidated by the militia and Russians troops if they haven't left Crimea altogether already it is probably the case that the majority wish to be Russian and Ukrainian forces would meet serious resistance if they tried to retake it. Crimea is gone.

What we do need to do is send a forceful message that there are consequences to what Russia has done and they need to be serious enough so that Putin meets significant resistance within Russia should we be foolhardy enough to proceed with his new Russian union further.

I don't see what forceful message we can realistically send that will deter Putin and his cronies from this or similar acts elsewhere when it suits. Sanctions won't affect them and the Russian people are used to suffering. They'll be carefully fed an anti western diet to assuage their hunger and they'll accept it you can be sure. The fact that Putin has done what he has indicates that he doesn't think the 'west' has the appetite to take him on over such actions.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I didn't for a moment suggest that Russia were blameless, however the reaction of the west to what occurred hasn't helped matters at all, neither has the indifference to the indiscretions of the new government.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------



A war with Russia was never going to be won by conventional forces, the plan was always to fall back on tactical nukes as the Russians would always massively outnumber NATO.

General John Hackett disagrees re stopping them with conventional force, his book was quite scary in terms of timeline, we're lucky gorbachev got power but in his opinion after their military advance stalled in germany they'd make a last throw of the dice with a nuclear strike at a large british city like Birmingham and we'd retaliate by obliterating of all cities Kiev