Ukraine on the verge of civil war! - Page 9

Pierre · 02-03-2014, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem

John Reid IIRC. Whatever version of those words he uttered, given what had happened in Iraq, IMHO there was an effort to understate the likely ramifications of any involvement in Afghanistan in order to 'sell' the intervention to parliament and the country. That being my point.

We went into Afghanistan before Iraq-2. And I doubt he was referring a Desert Storm, as I'm sure shots were fired then?

Hom3r · 02-03-2014, 20:30

Surely this is an "Act of War" from Russia

**Chris** · 03-03-2014, 00:03

Yes. And Afghanistan and Iraq2 were acts of war by America and ourselves. We set the example Russia is now following and TBH Russia's pretext for kicking off in the Crimea is rather better for ours when it came to bombing Iraq back to the stone age.

Mr Angry · 03-03-2014, 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Yes. And Afghanistan and Iraq2 were acts of war by America and ourselves. We set the example Russia is now following and TBH Russia's pretext for kicking off in the Crimea is rather better for ours when it came to bombing Iraq back to the stone age.

You do have a valid point there Chris.

Pierre · 03-03-2014, 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Yes. And Afghanistan and Iraq2 were acts of war by America and ourselves. We set the example Russia is now following and TBH Russia's pretext for kicking off in the Crimea is rather better for ours when it came to bombing Iraq back to the stone age.

I agree,

My post was more of refuting the claim , that somehow we were promised to go in and out of Afghanistan without firing a shot. Which was total nonsense.

That aside, on this issue, best we stay out of it. although the Ukraine is an independent nation. The legacy ties with Russia especially in the Crimea, make this a " watch and see" more than a " get involved" situation.

Gary L · 03-03-2014, 00:27

I can't see Dave staying out of it. he likes attention too much.
it'll be another thing to put down on his CV to him.

Sirius · 03-03-2014, 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

I can't see Dave staying out of it. he likes attention too much.
it'll be another thing to put down on his CV to him.

I can we have no army left. We could not defend this country against a bunch of drunken boy scouts never mind the Russian bear. If it kicks off other countries would send in a sizeable force we might be able to muster maybe a few tanks and a few jackels.

Gary L · 03-03-2014, 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius

I can we have no army left. We could not defend this country against a bunch of drunken boy scouts never mind the Russian bear.

And who's fault is that. that we have no army left?

he can always say I'm going to send our unpaid volunteers over. when he addresses the world.

TheDaddy · 03-03-2014, 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L

And who's fault is that. that we have no army left?

he can always say I'm going to send our unpaid volunteers over. when he addresses the world.

Providing it's at the weekend

Sirius · 03-03-2014, 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Providing it's at the weekend

So that would be the S.A.S

Saturdays And Sundays

Osem · 03-03-2014, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

We went into Afghanistan before Iraq-2. And I doubt he was referring a Desert Storm, as I'm sure shots were fired then?

The point is that we were led into all those conflicts by a Govt. which deliberately overstated the threats (e.g. WMDs) and understated the long term risks of what we were embarking on for reasons best known to themselves. I Never claimed that whatever Reid said was a promise, how could it be, but it was just another example of our politicians understating the reality in order to overcome opposition at the time. Given what has since happened in Afghanistan and Iraq, I hope we've learned some lessons from that.

**Damien** · 03-03-2014, 10:22

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-...stock-markets/

Quote:

Russia's stock markets have dropped about 10% and its currency has fallen to its lowest point ever against the dollar and the euro because of the crisis in neighbouring Ukraine.

The Moscow Exchange fell about 10% in the first hour of trading today, although it later recovered slightly.

The rouble, already down nearly 10% this year, fell below 50 against the euro for the first time. It was trading below 36.4 to the dollar, also a record.

Also according to an article in The Times today Europe isn't as dependent on Russian Oil as it was in 2008. Economic sanctions from Europe and the US could wreck Russia's economy.

Osem · 03-03-2014, 10:37

And how would Putin react to that? The Russian psyche seems to be that they can endure whatever suffering is meted out but will always come back with more. Quite probably a legacy of WWII and other major historical events. Whether it's true or not, the EU being presented as trying to destroy Russia's economy in order to stir up sentiment there is the last thing we want I'd have thought. Is Putin a very clever chess player or irrational? A bit of both maybe? Great caution is required here because in circumstances such as these, one error of judgement could set off a tinderbox.

**Damien** · 03-03-2014, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem

And how would Putin react to that? The Russian psyche seems to be that they can endure whatever suffering is meted out but will always come back with more. Quite probably a legacy of WWII and other major historical events. Whether it's true or not, the EU being presented as trying to destroy Russia's economy in order to stir up sentiment there is the last thing we want I'd have thought. Is Putin a very clever chess player or irrational? A bit of both maybe? Great caution is required here because in circumstances such as these, one error of judgement could set off a tinderbox.

The question is how much dissent can he tolerate in his own country? A collapsing economy as he tries to recreate the Soviet Union might be too much for even Putin to cope with.

Osem · 03-03-2014, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

The question is how much dissent can he tolerate in his own country? A collapsing economy as he tries to recreate the Soviet Union might be too much for even Putin to cope with.

Or how effectively can he blame western forces of evil for any/all damage to his economy and in so doing stir up nationalistic support. Whatever the real reason for it, Russia descending into chaos would be a very big problem for all of us. I can't see Putin going anywhere soon - quietly or easily. He's becoming a very dangerous caricature of himself.