General : Coming soon to Virgin TV 2014

Originally Posted by jj20x

They are operating a cartel with HBO to control supply of HBO programmes within the UK market. The equivalent comparison with fuel supply would be to say electric cars are also available.

No it wouldn't. Your example isn't similar at all. Other dramas are available, other gangster programmes are available, other fantasy programmes are available etc. Once again, HBO programmes are only one brand. Other brands are available. Just like other petrol brands are available.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jj20x

Yes, of course, but the point I was making was that if Tesco entered into such an agreement with the fuel companies it would be a cartel operating in restraint of trade and the courts would swiftly bring that arrangement to an end. Why is the tv market so different?

The problem here is that all these comparisons with supermarkets are nonsense. I can take my grocery list to Sainsbury's, Asda, Tesco's or wherever, and I would be able to buy the products I wanted in any of them.

The thing about Sky Atlantic is that Sky have bought all these exclusive rights and nobody else gets a look in. As I've said before, I am happy with VM, Sky, BT or whoever putting on their own exclusive channels, but the programmes and films should not be exclusive (except maybe for a maximum of 6 months).

Sky Atlantic shows Game of Thrones. What other channel provider can do this? The answer is none, of course, and that is wrong.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Sky Atlantic shows Game of Thrones. What other channel provider can do this? The answer is none, of course, and that is wrong.

So...

Only VM has 120Mb broadband. Is that wrong?
Only VM has 3 tuners. Is that wrong?
Only VM has TiVo. Is that wrong?
Only VM has integrated Netflix. Is that wrong?

You want it all, but like everyone else in every marketplace, you have to decide what's best for you, and sacrifice some things. And then stop moaning about the things that you haven't chosen.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by JustaBloke

So...

Only VM has 120Mb broadband. Is that wrong?
Only VM has 3 tuners. Is that wrong?
Only VM has TiVo. Is that wrong?
Only VM has integrated Netflix. Is that wrong?

You want it all, but like everyone else in every marketplace, you have to decide what's best for you, and sacrifice some things. And then stop moaning about the things that you haven't chosen.

Don't be so ridiculous, you know the point I am making. All those examples above may be peculiar to Virgin Media but nobody is stopping BT or Sky from offering it are they?

You are arguing for the sake of it and I'm not participating in this nonsense any longer.

Originally Posted by JustaBloke

No it wouldn't. Your example isn't similar at all. Other dramas are available, other gangster programmes are available, other fantasy programmes are available etc. Once again, HBO programmes are only one brand. Other brands are available. Just like other petrol brands are available.

The whole point of the free market is that there are no restrictions on supply. If supply is restricted, the market isn't free and the government should step in to ensure a free market is restored. The restraint to trade is the exclusivity clause in the contract, effectively forming a cartel to control supply, availability and price of the product. Prior to the exclusive agreement with Sky, HBO content was available "on-demand" on Virgin Media.

Your argument that other channels are available and other drama etc is available doesn't apply to the example I gave, it didn't state that channels or drama programmes were being restricted but cited a specific product. The specific product having its supply restricted is HBO content. Clearly other petrol brands are available but the example I gave was of a cartel being formed by the fuel companies (plural) and Tesco, so the specific example there was petrol as a whole.

Obviously the size of the markets are different and the example I gave is obviously a situation that wouldn't actually happen but was clearly intended to show cartels working in restraint of trade.

---------- Post added at 20:10 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The problem here is that all these comparisons with supermarkets are nonsense. I can take my grocery list to Sainsbury's, Asda, Tesco's or wherever, and I would be able to buy the products I wanted in any of them.

Yep, which is why my example was of one supermarket totally controlling the supply of fuel. You wouldn't be able to go elsewhere, just as you can't go elsewhere for Sky Atlantic.

The thing about Sky Atlantic is that Sky have bought all these exclusive rights and nobody else gets a look in. As I've said before, I am happy with VM, Sky, BT or whoever putting on their own exclusive channels, but the programmes and films should not be exclusive (except maybe for a maximum of 6 months).

I don't have a massive problem with them obtaining exclusive rights but if they do operate in this way to restrict supply and distort the market, they shouldn't also be allowed to make the channel exclusive. If they are acting as a monopoly supplier, an independent third party should set a fair price at which the channel should be made available to other platform operators.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Don't be so ridiculous, you know the point I am making. All those examples above may be peculiar to Virgin Media but nobody is stopping BT or Sky from offering it are they?

Nice try. As usual a paper-thin argument. http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zht...073&highlight=

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You are arguing for the sake of it and I'm not participating in this nonsense any longer.

Jolly good, you won't be missed. The standard of debate is far higher (and FAR more creditable) without you.

Originally Posted by JustaBloke

So...

Only VM has 120Mb broadband. Is that wrong?

Very wrong, UPC Ireland has 200Mb broadband, VM should up their game.

[passingbat]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Don't be so ridiculous, you know the point I am making. All those examples above may be peculiar to Virgin Media but nobody is stopping BT or Sky from offering it are they?

You are arguing for the sake of it and I'm not participating in this nonsense any longer.

Actually Tivo is exclusive to VM, so no one else can offer it as a set top box option.

I share your frustration and annoyance over Sky Atlantic, but sadly that is the current way that content deals are done.

The online services deals are no different; Lovefilm got exclusive rights to Vikings, so no TV channel or Netflix etc.can show it.

What I find a little frustrating and strange over HBO only being available on Atlantic is that I think, in the US, HBO is available as a Premium service on most cable and satellite services, not just one. But I do stand to be corrected on that.

Originally Posted by jj20x

The whole point of the free market is that there are no restrictions on supply. If supply is restricted, the market isn't free and the government should step in to ensure a free market is restored. The restraint to trade is the exclusivity clause in the contract, effectively forming a cartel to control supply, availability and price of the product. Prior to the exclusive agreement with Sky, HBO content was available "on-demand" on Virgin Media.

Your argument that other channels are available and other drama etc is available doesn't apply to the example I gave, it didn't state that channels or drama programmes were being restricted but cited a specific product. The specific product having its supply restricted is HBO content. Clearly other petrol brands are available but the example I gave was of a cartel being formed by the fuel companies (plural) and Tesco, so the specific example there was petrol as a whole.

Obviously the size of the markets are different, but the example I gave is obviously a situation that wouldn't actually happen but was clearly intended to show cartels working in restraint of trade.

Later tonight I'm planning to relax with a nice (to me) Jack Daniels over ice. This is one of many foreign products that are imported to the UK by British companies (in this case Diageo) who then do what they will with it so long as they have JDs permission. They reduce it's ABV to suit individual markets, they inject it into alcopops like Slate 20 etc.

Now, whilst I agree it wouldn't be in their best interests in the booze market for them to do this, there's absolutely no reason why Diageo couldn't withdraw JD from wholesale and sign an exclusive supply agreement with (say) Wetherspoons pubs.

Other bourbons would still remain available. But if you wanted JD, go to Wetherspoons.

Sky merely do the same thing, they import HBO content, repackage it as SA and flog it exclusively in their pub. Want it really, really badly? Go get it from their pub, it's available to you.

Originally Posted by JustaBloke

Go get it from their pub, it's available to you.

Which is exactly the point, it is available through one supplier only. Monopolistic behaviour preventing a free market being available for the product.

Originally Posted by jj20x

Which is exactly the point, it is available through one supplier only. Monopolistic behaviour preventing a free market being available for the product.

I'm sorry mate. What point?

The Whopper is available from BK only - other burgers are available.
JD is available from Diageo only - Other bourbons are available.
The Astra is available from Vauxhall only - There are loads of other crap cars available.*

There is no monopoly. broadcast platforms are offered by VM, BT, TT, Freesat & Freeview in the UK. Programme production is carried out by the BBC, ITV, C4, C5 and countless independents in the UK and importation of programmes is too.

So no free market is being prevented. We're all absolutely free to join any provider we want.

*OK. Opel too, if anyone wants to split hairs.

Originally Posted by JustaBloke

I'm sorry mate. What point?

The Whopper is available from BK only - other burgers are available.
JD is available from Diageo only - Other bourbons are available.
The Astra is available from Vauxhall only - There are loads of other crap cars available.*

There is no monopoly. broadcast platforms are offered by VM, BT, TT, Freesat & Freeview in the UK. Programme production is carried out by the BBC, ITV, C4, C5 and countless independents in the UK and importation of programmes is too.

So no free market is being prevented. We're all absolutely free to join any provider we want.

*OK. Opel too, if anyone wants to split hairs.

You are speaking of brand names used by individual companies, a totally different situation. Sure, Sky Atlantic is a brand name of Sky and they can do with that as they please. Once again, the supply being restricted is HBO content. HBO is not a Sky brand name, it is a third party product.

Obviously there isn't a free market for HBO content when Sky's exclusivity deal prevents the supply of HBO content to other platforms.

In my original example of Tesco exclusively controlling the supply of fuel, the public would be free to shop at Tesco but similarly there wouldn't be a free market for fuel.

Originally Posted by jj20x

You are speaking of brand names used by individual companies, a totally different situation. Sure, Sky Atlantic is a brand name of Sky and they can do with that as they please. Once again, the supply being restricted is HBO content. HBO is not a Sky brand name, it is a third party product.

Obviously there isn't a free market for HBO content when Sky's exclusivity deal prevents the supply of HBO content to other platforms.

In my original example of Tesco exclusively controlling the supply of fuel, the public would be free to shop at Tesco but similarly there wouldn't be a free market for fuel.

You're quite right. It is a totally different situation from what you seem to be proposing. Good thing too.

The free market doesn't seek to restrict businesses from differentiating themselves in order to gain commercial advantage. The free market welcomes and embraces such activities.

I'm at a loss to respond to your inexplicable desire to go back to your fuel example as it has no relationship to this conversation. Petrol is a fuel, a necessity to individuals and to our country's economy more generally. HBO programming isn't. Which is why the authorities are perhaps a little less keen to reap nuclear armageddon on Sky than you are.

[andy_m]

I'm glad somebody has finally drawn the distinction between necessary fuels and luxury TV channels!

Originally Posted by JustaBloke

The free market doesn't seek to restrict businesses from differentiating themselves in order to gain commercial advantage. The free market welcomes and embraces such activities.

Again, nothing to do with the discussion. Such activities should indeed be embraced and Sky's unique mixture of HBO content and other miscellaneous content would be a good way of doing that. They could have done that without preventing HBO from supplying their content to other platforms.

I'm at a loss to respond to your inexplicable desire to go back to your fuel example as it has no relationship to this conversation. Petrol is a fuel, a necessity to individuals and to our country's economy more generally. HBO programming isn't. Which is why the authorities are perhaps a little less keen to reap nuclear armageddon on Sky than you are.

It's merely a more extreme example of a company forming a cartel to control supply and distort the market. As for being essential to individuals, I'm sure that back in the day, Norman Tebbit would have pointed out that bicycles are also available.

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:09 ----------

Originally Posted by andy_m

I'm glad somebody has finally drawn the distinction between necessary fuels and luxury TV channels!

Originally Posted by JustaBloke

I've just been shopping in ASDA. They wouldn't accept my Tesco Clubcard. They said Tesco say they can't accept it. How nasty can Tesco be? And I couldn't buy Sainsburys bacon there either! Vindictive, I call it...

The fuel example was only used as it was a better illustration a company attempting to control supply of a product than the previous supermarket based analogies.