Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Was the apartheid regime killing innocent civilians with bombs and guns? If so I'd like to see some links to support your assertion.

Well there was the Sharpeville Massacre that I mentioned before and sparked the start of the ANC turning to violence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre

Other than that it wasn't uncommon for lesser killings to take place. Although they would tend to individual instances. This is an example:

http://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/po...ment-1961-1989

Although it depends what you define as innocent. I define it as anyone who didn't take up violence but still were hit by violence, however most of them including the Sharpeville massacre involved people who were protesting which some on here might not class as innocent.

Botha was found to have ordered the bombing of a church too:

http://content.time.com/time/magazin...,11300,00.html

Besides I think we're all agreed apartheid was a horrific thing we're all glad to see the back of. Even without the violence it was a gross abuse of mankind.

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

That is because this thread was started and I am grateful because I was holding off on posting anything about it anywhere. If you want to discuss the evils of apartheid why not start a thread about that maybe?

No because apartheid is pretty central to this whole discussion. People are trying to strip the context from Mandela's bombing campaign because it's much worse that way. It's like that post earlier where someone posted that Mandela refused this offer to be released if he 'unconditionally' renounce violence and left out the part where it also involved him shutting up and stop challenging apartheid!

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by spreadsheet

the Dambusters raids in Germany caused huge damage and massive civilian casualties and was the sort of Twin Towers attack of its day - and yet we build statues and make films about these heroic acts - "yes but" etc etc


so - once again - stuff to think about

That was done during WWII. That can't really be compared to a terrorist act of such scale as the Twin Towers.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Stephen

That was done during WWII. That can't really be compared to a terrorist act of such scale as the Twin Towers.

It wasn't a terrorist act, war had been declared & Germany bombed London first. However, on a scale of destruction it was as devastating as the twin towers. Both incidents bore unacceptable losses. There are also many definitions of the word "Terrorist".

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by SMG

It wasn't a terrorist act, war had been declared & Germany bombed London first. However, on a scale of destruction it was as devastating as the twin towers. Both incidents bore unacceptable losses. There are also many definitions of the word "Terrorist".

Actually the first deliberate bombing of civilian urban areas was committed by us in Berlin and the blitz was the result and with hindsight lucky us, it kept us in the war. Make no mistake Dresden was a war crime, why else did it take so long to commemorate the bomber crews with a memorial, even bloody animals got one before they did and that's scandalous imo it wasn't their fault we were so desperate to impress the Russians and their sacrifice throughout the war should've been acknowledged sooner imo.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Actually the first deliberate bombing of civilian urban areas was committed by us in Berlin and the blitz was the result and with hindsight lucky us, it kept us in the war. Make no mistake Dresden was a war crime, why else did it take so long to commemorate the bomber crews with a memorial, even bloody animals got one before they did and that's scandalous imo it wasn't their fault we were so desperate to impress the Russians and their sacrifice throughout the war should've been acknowledged sooner imo.

You are quite right M8, I didn't mention the word deliberate! London was the first city hit by the Germans, albeit non intentional. I don't believe Dresden was a war crime, the Jerries razed Coventry. Dresden was blown to hell (burnt) by superior aircraft & sheer numbers, make no mistake, had Hitler possessed such power, he would have used it to destroy London.

The Bomber crews & various organisations were commemorated late, far too late in my opinion. Many people said Harris was wrong, but hindsight only helps future decisions, & this was, total war.

The Merchant navy, also played a massive role in WW2, were commemorated after Bomber command, again far too late, half the poor buggers were already dead. The Russians paid a terrible price, & its not well known either. I believe Germany got what it deserved, they also paid a terrible price, but I believe when you deliberately start killing civilians, your past the point of no return.

[Stephen]

Stay on topic please

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by SMG

You are quite right M8, I didn't mention the word deliberate! London was the first city hit by the Germans, albeit non intentional. I don't believe Dresden was a war crime, the Jerries razed Coventry. Dresden was blown to hell (burnt) by superior aircraft & sheer numbers, make no mistake, had Hitler possessed such power, he would have used it to destroy London.

The Bomber crews & various organisations were commemorated late, far too late in my opinion. Many people said Harris was wrong, but hindsight only helps future decisions, & this was, total war.

The Merchant navy, also played a massive role in WW2, were commemorated after Bomber command, again far too late, half the poor buggers were already dead. The Russians paid a terrible price, & its not well known either. I believe Germany got what it deserved, they also paid a terrible price, but I believe when you deliberately start killing civilians, your past the point of no return.

Some may have deserved it, most suffered and endured with no more guilt than anyone else, it's always been that way and apartheid.south Africa was no different really, the majority suffered on the ideology of a few.

[progers]

Originally Posted by peanut

The only problem I have with these kind of biopics is that they tend to gloss over certain aspects to suit the agenda. Though I will be giving it a watch.

It was interesting watching the news programmes & documentary about Mandela, my wife commented how closely the film followed the facts

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Got a link for that? If he did then I would consider that as a terrorist act though Botha not a terrorist.

Is any military action on another nations territory terrorism. I'm thinking the drones in Pakistan or africa?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110100006.html

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2006...es.southafrica

In June 1998, the contempt case at last went ahead and a former police colonel, Eugene de Kock, a licensed killer under apartheid, attested how he had carried out bombings in Johannesburg and London on Botha's orders.

South Africa's security services are in for a hard time:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...nelson-mandela

[Gary L]

Turns out the guy doing the sign language at the memorial was fake.
LOL

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-8997486.html

Well as does The Telegraph:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/pe...ndela-was-one/

I don't know the context of the BBC Interview but taking a question and making the editorial line of the BBC and the opinion of the interviewer is a bit unfair. He could have been referencing the previous comparisons.

[Gary L]

Turns out the fake sign language guy is mentally ill and was suffering a schizophrenia attack at the time of signing.

Originally Posted by Gary L

Turns out the fake sign language guy is mentally ill and was suffering a schizophrenia attack at the time of signing.

Indeed ,and obviously the best place for someone having a schizophrenia episode is a stage full of world leaders

[Gary L]

I know. can you imagine if he did anything to hurt Dave?