Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist

Originally Posted by SMG

Terrorist.

Nelson Mandela's reply to this offer...

I am a member of the African National Congress. I have always been a member of the African National Congress and I will remain a member of the African National Congress until the day I die. Oliver Tambo is much more than a brother to me. He is my greatest friend and comrade for nearly fifty years. If there is any one amongst you who cherishes my freedom, Oliver Tambo cherishes it more, and I know that he would give his life to see me free. There is no difference between his views and mine.

I am surprised at the conditions that the government wants to impose on me. I am not a violent man. My colleagues and I wrote in 1952 to Malan asking for a round table conference to find a solution to the problems of our country, but that was ignored. When Strijdom was in power, we made the same offer. Again it was ignored. When Verwoerd was in power we asked for a national convention for all the people in South Africa to decide on their future. This, too, was in vain.
It was only then, when all other forms of resistance were no longer open to us, that we turned to armed struggle. Let Botha show that he is different to Malan, Strijdom and Verwoerd. Let him renounce violence. Let him say that he will dismantle apartheid. Let him unban the people's organisation, the African National Congress. Let him free all who have been imprisoned, banished or exiled for their opposition to apartheid. Let him guarantee free political activity so that people may decide who will govern them.

I cherish my own freedom dearly, but I care even more for your freedom. Too many have died since I went to prison. Too many have suffered for the love of freedom. I owe it to their widows, to their orphans, to their mothers and to their fathers who have grieved and wept for them. Not only I have suffered during these long, lonely, wasted years. I am not less life-loving than you are. But I cannot sell my birthright, nor am I prepared to sell the birthright of the people to be free. I am in prison as the representative of the people and of your organisation, the African National Congress, which was banned.

What freedom am I being offered while the organisation of the people remains banned? What freedom am I being offered when I may be arrested on a pass offence? What freedom am I being offered to live my life as a family with my dear wife who remains in banishment in Brandfort? What freedom am I being offered when I must ask for permission to live in an urban area? What freedom am I being offered when I need a stamp in my pass to seek work? What freedom am I being offered when my very South African citizenship is not respected?
Only free men can negotiate. Prisoners cannot enter into contracts. Herman Toivo ja Toivo, when freed, never gave any undertaking, nor was he called upon to do so. I cannot and will not give any undertaking at a time when I and you, the people, are not free.Your freedom and mine cannot be separated. I will return.

So he was unwilling to accept his own (very limited offer of) freedom, unless others had freedom as well - not sure how that makes him a terrorist?

btw, Botha personally ordered the bombing of the South African Council of Churches HQ in Jo'burg and the ANC offices in London - does that make him a terrorist?

Originally Posted by SMG

Terrorist.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

QED.

No taken out of context again out of desperation to condemn the man as a terrorist. He didn't want to accept the status quo, he didn't want to be released if the ANC and protests against the apartheid state were still banned. He wanted freedom for black people and rejected the offer that he would be freed at their expense.

What would you have had him and victims of apartheid do? When they were being killed for wanting the right to vote, for wanting to be equal to the white population? Just accept their ban and walk away?

[blackthorn]

Whatever part he played in getting rid of apartheid was a good thing. As a young naive lad in the 70s I visited Simonstown 3 times with the navy and to say I was shocked would have been an understatement. I just couldnt believe how they were treated but we were told not to say or do anything that could affect relations between Sa and the uk.
Because we were submariners, we got to stay in hotels instead of on board and there was one incident that I`ll never forget. The night before we were due to sail, we were all in the bar drinking (as usual) and everybody was putting all the leftover rands in the middle of the table, with the intentions of giving it all to the waiter. The manager, who was white, sussed out what we were doing and came over to the table and said that if we attempted to give any of the (his words) pigs anything, then they would be arrested.
So any part Mandela played in getting rid of that system deserves the credit thats been given.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by martyh

I don't want to get into the ins and outs of NI but at the time the majority of the inhabitants of what would become NI where protestants and wanted to remain part of GB ,and the Government of Ireland act passed through Parliament in the democratic process of the time so it was generally speaking a democratic process and i suspect that the troubles where largely created by the differences in perception which you have just highlighted ,Gerry Adams and yourself being on the side that see the separation as being "imposed" by the government and the other side seeing the separation as the wishes of the majority

martyh, it is a fact and not a matter opinion, that the partition of Ireland was imposed on the population of the island by an Act drafted by the British Parliament. There was nothing "generally" democratic about how it came about or was imposed.

I suggest it would be useful if you were to read a bit more about the history of partition and the religious makeup of Ireland pre partition before posting on the matter any further. In doing so you will find that the imposition of partition isolated many thousands of protestants (7.6% of the overall population) and presbyterians living in the south of Ireland - many thousands who, I hasten to add, had no say whatsoever in the "generally" democratic process which you seem to think took place.

Additionally it's worthy of note in the context of this particular thread, that the Act of partitition was hastened because the predomninantly protestant UVF procured weapons from the Germans with which they threatened to wage a war - defacto a threat of terrorism.

[Kymmy]

I wonder if the white, colored and Indian/Asian classes would have been given the vote if the ANC/Freedom parties had forced the blacks into power in the 60's/70's?

It wasn't until the 90's that I believe that a true power sharing could have existed and worked the way it did with the right people on all sides. Though even in the 90's blacks expected a mass redistribution of wealth and the subjugation of the minorities which was being promised to them by unscrupulous ANC members in return for their votes.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

martyh, it is a fact and not a matter opinion, that the partition of Ireland was imposed on the population of the island by an Act drafted by the British Parliament. There was nothing "generally" democratic about how it came about or was imposed.

I suggest it would be useful if you were to read a bit more about the history of partition and the religious makeup of Ireland pre partition before posting on the matter any further. In doing so you will find that the imposition of partition isolated many thousands of protestants (7.6% of the overall population) and presbyterians living in the south of Ireland - many thousands who, I hasten to add, had no say whatsoever in the "generally" democratic process which you seem to think took place.

Additionally it's worthy of note in the context of this particular thread, that the Act of partitition was hastened because the predomninantly protestant UVF procured weapons from the Germans with which they threatened to wage a war - defacto a threat of terrorism.

Well it was your link that said it passed through parliament so that makes it a democratic process whether you agree with or not .It may not have been perfect and it may not have suited everyone but it was still a democratic process ,exactly the same way as the Good Friday agreement is not perfect and does not suit everyone ,it was still a democratic process

terrorist whilst organising bombings then a freedom fighter when they won

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by martyh

Well it was your link that said it passed through parliament so that makes it a democratic process whether you agree with or not .It may not have been perfect and it may not have suited everyone but it was still a democratic process ,exactly the same way as the Good Friday agreement is not perfect and does not suit everyone ,it was still a democratic process

Admittedly the Good Friday / Belfast agreement isn't perfect nor does it suit everyone. However, as you say it was democratically (in the true sense) approved by voters throughout the entire island of Ireland - something denied the population as far as partition was concerned.

[Stephen]

Great little story on the BBC about Mandela and how he was like a myth when in prison as photos of him were banned so no one knew what he looked like.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25256818

As the imprisoned Nelson Mandela became the face of a global campaign against apartheid, within South Africa a ban on his image meant people weren't sure what he looked like - and he became a mythological figure, recalls author William Gumede.


Nelson Mandela was very fond of telling a story of how, in the early 1980s, while at the windswept Robben Island prison where he had been banished for opposing the apartheid regime, he was taken to the mainland in Cape Town for a medical check-up.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

terrorist whilst organising bombings then a freedom fighter when they won

Just about sums it up.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Admittedly the Good Friday / Belfast agreement isn't perfect nor does it suit everyone. However, as you say it was democratically (in the true sense) approved by voters throughout the entire island of Ireland - something denied the population as far as partition was concerned.

Interesting that you use the phrase "in the true sense" compared to my use of the phrase "democracy of the time" an important distinction i feel.I agree that the Good Friday agreement was the result of a more democratic process than the Partition act simply because back when the Partition act was being hashed out roughly half the adult population weren't deemed intelligent enough to vote (namely women)so in that respect there was i suppose an element of imposition .It's also interesting to note that during the same period the UK government where also building the foundations for Apartheid in SA.

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

terrorist whilst organising bombings then a freedom fighter when they won

I suppose you could say the same about the Americans in the 18th Century, the Indian revolutionaries in the 20th Century, the French Resistance during WW2, the State of Israel, the Bangladesh War in the 70s, El Salvador in the 80s, etc., etc.....

Yeah I guess the reason they're not considered terrorists is because the cause they thought was just. Your impression of them probably depends on if you agree that they didn't have any other choice or not and if their goals were worthy. Most people now can see how unjust and barbaric apartheid was and that it needed to be stopped. Although it's worth remembering that Mandela didn't target civilians, only the apartheid state.

[Kymmy]

Originally Posted by Damien

Although it's worth remembering that Mandela didn't target civilians, only the apartheid state.

Since when has Jo'burgs main train station not been a civilian target?

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Since when has Jo'burgs main train station not been a civilian target?

that wasn't Mandela (he was in jail at the time and had been for some time) it was Frederick john Harris a member of ARM,the only white person executed for crimes committed in the resistance against apartheid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_John_Harris