An end to NI terror prosecutions?

[Osem]

There should be an end to prosecutions for Troubles-related killings, Northern Ireland's attorney general has said.

John Larkin said there should be no further police investigations, inquests or inquiries into any relevant killings that took place before the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24999051

Seems a bit odd that this is being proposed given we're currently involved in investigating and prosecuting all manner of people in respect of abuse allegations (some questionable) dating back to the 1960's.

[Pauls9]

If this happened, I can see it being regretted in the future. Future improvements in detection techniques are likely to make it easier to identify miscreants. The simple existence of the amnesty is likely to lead to people coming forward with evidence or confessions.

Originally Posted by Pauls9

If this happened, I can see it being regretted in the future. Future improvements in detection techniques are likely to make it easier to identify miscreants. The simple existence of the amnesty is likely to lead to people coming forward with evidence or confessions.

As part of the peace process we are not allowed to gather evidence relating to murders by the ira or examine any of the weapons forensically or examine any of the "disappeared" other than to identify them ,so with most of any evidence unavailable to us it is quite pointless pursuing anyone

---------- Post added at 14:02 ---------- Previous post was at 14:00 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24999051

Seems a bit odd that this is being proposed given we're currently involved in investigating and prosecuting all manner of people in respect of abuse allegations (some questionable) dating back to the 1960's.

More of a coincidence that Gerry Adams has been linked to a killing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24987465

Hopefully an end to Prosecutions will stop us turning on our own.

It is time that the troubles in NI where put to bed and people moved on

[Osem]

Originally Posted by martyh

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24987465

Hopefully an end to Prosecutions will stop us turning on our own.

It is time that the troubles in NI where put to bed and people moved on

True but I can't see that happening if this plan goes ahead. In fact I can see it backfiring and causing more grief and people are deprived of legal justice and turn to their own variety.

People do need to move on but, just like the Nazis who fled justice, those on both sides who've bombed, killed, maimed etc. need to know that they will be wanted until their dying day.

Originally Posted by Osem

True but I can't see that happening if this plan goes ahead. In fact I can see it backfiring and causing more grief and people are deprived of legal justice and turn to their own variety.

People do need to move on but, just like the Nazis who fled justice, those on both sides who've bombed, killed, maimed etc. need to know that they will be wanted until their dying day.

The Nazis didn't the Good Friday Agreement to protect them though .We have already let loads of bombers and murderers out of jail under that agreement so how can we possibly prosecute others and expect them to go to jail

[Osem]

Originally Posted by martyh

The Nazis didn't the Good Friday Agreement to protect them though .We have already let loads of bombers and murderers out of jail under that agreement so how can we possibly prosecute others and expect them to go to jail

Prosecution and punishment are different. I dare say many of those who've suffered would be grateful if those responsible were simply identified and prosecuted and accepted their wrongdoing. Whatever punishment deemed appropriate at the time would be a different matter. Whilst the thugs and murderers still won't even reveal where they disposed of their victims there can be no chance of these matters being forgotten or put behind anyone. The troubles in Ireland have persisted for many decades and I can't see one side forgetting and the other side not.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by martyh

As part of the peace process we are not allowed to gather evidence relating to murders by the ira or examine any of the weapons forensically or examine any of the "disappeared" other than to identify them ,so with most of any evidence unavailable to us it is quite pointless pursuing anyone

Wrong.

"In a February 2008 it was confirmed in the House of Commons that the Historical Enquiries Team (HET) was to examine all deaths attributed to The Troubles from January 1969 to the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, equating to 3,268 deaths which occurred in 2,516 incidents (an incident is described as a case). At that time 1,039 cases had been allocated to the HET business process. The team currently has a total of 175 staff."

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Wrong.

"In a February 2008 it was confirmed in the House of Commons that the Historical Enquiries Team (HET) was to examine all deaths attributed to The Troubles from January 1969 to the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, equating to 3,268 deaths which occurred in 2,516 incidents (an incident is described as a case). At that time 1,039 cases had been allocated to the HET business process. The team currently has a total of 175 staff."

We cannot test decommissioned weapons to forensically link them to crimes

If a body(one of the disapeared) is discovered or the IRA tell us where one is we cannot examine that body other than to identify it

John Larkin has said that so much evidence or potential evidence has been made unavailable for use then the next logical step would be to not prosecute anything from before the good friday agreement

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03hmpx5

skip through to 6mins in

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by martyh

We cannot test decommissioned weapons to forensically link them to crimes

If a body(one of the disapeared) is discovered or the IRA tell us where one is we cannot examine that body other than to identify it

John Larkin has said that so much evidence or potential evidence has been made unavailable for use then the next logical step would be to not prosecute anything from before the good friday agreement

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03hmpx5

skip through to 6mins in

Yes, quite.

I was pointing out that your assertion "As part of the peace process we are not allowed to gather evidence relating to murders by the ira ..." was wrong.

Additionally, the remit of the HET is not restricted to murders committed by the IRA. It also investigates murders by loyalist paramilitaries. In recent years its emphasis has been focused on murders carried out by means of state collusion and by the security forces.

As far as I am aware this position is simply Larkins position and he has not consulted at victim, ministerial or Governmental level before going public with his thoughts.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Yes, quite.

I was pointing out that your assertion"As part of the peace process we are not allowed to gather evidence relating to murders by the ira ..." was wrong.

Additionally, the remit of the HET is not restricted to murders committed by the IRA. It also investigates murders by loyalist paramilitaries. In recent years its emphasis has been focused on murders carried out by means of state collusion and by the security forces.

As far as I am aware this position is simply Larkins position and he has not consulted at victim, ministerial or Governmental level before going public with his thoughts.

Well according to the Attorney General there are a lot of restrictions so it would not be worth pursuing prosecutions .

What about a Truth and Reconciliation Commission similar to the one in South Africa ,maybe that is the way forward

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by martyh

Well according to the Attorney General there are a lot of restrictions so it would not be worth pursuing prosecutions.

Here's a very interesting point regarding the statement “This means that crucial forensic evidence, pivotal to securing convictions, cannot even be obtained, let alone used in court. As a result, the chance of victims’ families getting justice in the form of a criminal conviction is low and getting lower.”

That point is that there were dozens, if not hundreds, of successful prosecutions for terrorist murders in Northern Ireland where ballistics evidence was not "crucial” to conviction. What has suddenly changed? Why this sudden urgency & will to move on and "forget" the past on the part of our judiciary? Anyone would think they are trying to avoid something.

Originally Posted by martyh

What about a Truth and Reconciliation Commission similar to the one in South Africa ,maybe that is the way forward

This has been mooted (most voiciferously by Sinn Fein) many, many times and dismissed each time by the principal Unionist / Loyalist parties. I don't know that we'll ever get to the bottom of a lot of what went on but there are a lot of people, on various sides, who will do their level best to stop the truth coming out.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Here's a very interesting point regarding the statement “This means that crucial forensic evidence, pivotal to securing convictions, cannot even be obtained, let alone used in court. As a result, the chance of victims’ families getting justice in the form of a criminal conviction is low and getting lower.”

That point is that there were dozens, if not hundreds, of successful prosecutions for terrorist murders in Northern Ireland where ballistics evidence was not "crucial” to conviction. What has suddenly changed? Why this sudden urgency & will to move on and "forget" the past on the part of our judiciary? Anyone would think they are trying to avoid something.



This has been mooted (most voiciferously by Sinn Fein) many, many times and dismissed each time by the principal Unionist / Loyalist parties. I don't know that we'll ever get to the bottom of a lot of what went on but there are a lot of people, on various sides, who will do their level best to stop the truth coming out.

Since the agreement there have been very few conflict related prosecutions and the more time passes the less chance of convictions

“More than 15 years have passed since the Belfast agreement, there have been very few prosecutions, and every competent criminal lawyer will tell you the prospects of conviction diminish, perhaps exponentially, with each passing year, so we are in a position now where I think we have to take stock,” he said.

http://www.irishpost.co.uk/news/ni-a...s-prosecutions

[TheDaddy]

Panorama's going to open a whole new can of worms

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by martyh

“More than 15 years have passed since the Belfast agreement, there have been very few prosecutions, and every competent criminal lawyer will tell you the prospects of conviction diminish, perhaps exponentially, with each passing year, so we are in a position now where I think we have to take stock,” he said.

Again this is only Larkin's opinion. It's notable that there isn't a tsunami comprised of "every competent criminal lawyer" in the UK chomping at the bit to agree with him (and not simply because of the loss of potential earnings).

There have been plenty of criminal convictions for crimes (whether terror related or not) 15 plus years old upon which forensics and ballistics were not in any shape or form "crucial". Aside from this being at this stage a non consulted opinion of Larkin's the question is, as I asked earlier, "What has suddenly changed? Why this sudden urgency & will to move on and "forget" the past on the part of our judiciary? Anyone would think they are trying to avoid something".

You can't just do away with due process and justice becuse a few rather inconvenient truths might be exposed. That, in itself, is criminal.

I suspect TheDaddy may be on to something.