'Foreigners' at the hospital

Originally Posted by ceedee

How much does the NHS lose from foreign 'health tourists'?

This 40% figure is based on the following approximate calculation: that NHS Trusts currently invoice £35-55 million to overseas visitors who owe money, and they manage to recover £15-25 million of this.

but these figures from what I can make out will not include EU state members as they are entitled I believe to the NHS due to EU regs?

More than 600,000 unemployed European Union migrants are living in Britain at a cost of £1.5 billion to the NHS alone, according to an EU report.

and these figures do not include those who are working here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...migration.html

[Qtx]

Just to add, when you have lived in a city like London for years you notice new waves of arrivals and get to know their appearance and can also make an incormed guess as to how long they have been in the country based on this and many over visual clues such as mannerisms or indeed the way they talk. If you live out in the countryside though, you probably couldn't tell the difference between an Egyptian and Nigerian yet alone between an Iranian and an Afgan or Indian and Shri lanken. A Londoner would find it hard to explain to the country folk how they can tell the difference visually, but they can. Some white Polish women are easy for me to identify even if they are the other side of the street as they have uniquely Polish look, although only about 1 in 10 are that distinctive. Often the shaved head of the polish men and their look on top makes the guess easier although the men usually have thicker accents and not so good english too.

You can't be be 100% on nationality and time spent in the country but you can have a very good idea if you have lived in the right places. Even if you can't identify the nationality you can likely guess if they have come to the uk in the last 5 years, 10 or 20 years.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Qtx

Just to add, when you have lived in a city like London for years you notice new waves of arrivals and get to know their appearance and can also make an incormed guess as to how long they have been in the country based on this and many over visual clues such as mannerisms or indeed the way they talk. If you live out in the countryside though, you probably couldn't tell the difference between an Egyptian and Nigerian yet alone between an Iranian and an Afgan or Indian and Shri lanken. A Londoner would find it hard to explain to the country folk how they can tell the difference visually, but they can. Some white Polish women are easy for me to identify even if they are the other side of the street as they have uniquely Polish look, although only about 1 in 10 are that distinctive. Often the shaved head of the polish men and their look on top makes the guess easier although the men usually have thicker accents and not so good english too.

You can't be be 100% on nationality and time spent in the country but you can have a very good idea if you have lived in the right places.

Does this skill extend to knowing how much tax they pay?

Originally Posted by Russ

Does this skill extend to knowing how much tax they pay?

or how much they are taking out of the economy by sending money home

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Russ

Does this skill extend to knowing how much tax they pay?

Indeed. After all, it shouldn't really matter what colour they are or where they come from as long as the treatment is paid for directly by the patient, via Medical insurance or through the patient's taxes.

Originally Posted by Stuart

Indeed. After all, it shouldn't really matter what colour they are or where they come from as long as the treatment is paid for directly by the patient, via Medical insurance or through the patient's taxes.

But EU members do not have to pay

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Stuart

Indeed. After all, it shouldn't really matter what colour they are or where they come from as long as the treatment is paid for directly by the patient, via Medical insurance or through the patient's taxes.

Last month I had the 1st of 2 operations to have a large mole removed from the back of my head. The 2nd will be in a few months. I'm having on-going treatment for my ADHD. In my teens I had treatment for a road injury and through wrestling and running I've needed to see my GP (and occasionally go to hospital) for various injuries.

If the total cost of my health care was added up I'd say it's highly unlikely I've paid enough tax in 22 years to cover the overall cost.

It makes no difference what someone's skin colour is, which religion they follow or how long they've been in the country for. If they're working legally and paying tax then they are entitled to NHS treatment, end of.

From the EHIC site

Each country’s healthcare system is slightly different. Therefore, your EHIC might not cover everything that would be free on the NHS. However, you should be able to get the same treatment as a resident of the country you're visiting.

this is massively biased against the UK. Very few EU states have a NHS ( if any I do not know) so basically EU members who can travel here at will can come here and leech our NHS then either go home or whatever. We as I said can not get the same level as we have here and have to rely on what health service the nation offers

This along with the freedom of movement act is one of the main reasons I want out of the EU

[Qtx]

Originally Posted by Russ

Does this skill extend to knowing how much tax they pay?

While less are identifiable in that respect, you can be sure in many cases that they are or not working or paying taxes. While far from foolproof you can tell a lot by clothes but that along with their nationality look and where you see them and when and who they are with, along with the experience of living in London.

Just as a bleeding obvious example, if you see a short old indian looking lady at the hospital and she has a spot on her head (sikh), 99% chance that she has paid no tax/ni. You can also tell without her opening her mouth that she speaks no English whatsoever. She will be accompanied at the hospital by 2 or more younger relatives who will support and translate for her. Those relatives would be paying tax and ni.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Russ

Is it equally easy to tell whether or not someone has paid tax and NI?

As I said, if they haven't been here long (as inferred by their dress and appearance) then they obviously can't have paid much (or possibly any)

---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------

Originally Posted by Russ

It makes no difference what someone's skin colour is, which religion they follow or how long they've been in the country for. If they're working legally and paying tax then they are entitled to NHS treatment, end of.

Agree completely

[Qtx]

Originally Posted by Russ

Last month I had the 1st of 2 operations to have a large mole removed from the back of my head. The 2nd will be in a few months. I'm having on-going treatment for my ADHD. In my teens I had treatment for a road injury and through wrestling and running I've needed to see my GP (and occasionally go to hospital) for various injuries.

If the total cost of my health care was added up I'd say it's highly unlikely I've paid enough tax in 22 years to cover the overall cost.

It makes no difference what someone's skin colour is, which religion they follow or how long they've been in the country for. If they're working legally and paying tax then they are entitled to NHS treatment, end of.

I agree, if they are paying tax's in this country they should be entitled to it. We do have a problem where immigration is causing more stress on the NHS and extending waiting times though. So it's not that simple either.

The ADHD treatment alone is expensive but the pharmaceutical business is another argument altogether which needs looking at. Hardly had any hospital treatment or medications before but had almost a full body MRI at the weekend and the ADHD diagnosis last year means I am making use of all those NI payments now. Knowing that some people come to the UK for free treatment then go back home to India for example (where treatment is expensive) without paying NI, does annoy me. I know people personally who do this.

[denphone]

Oh dear not another thread where some are voicing their prejudices and bigotness again.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Qtx

While less are identifiable in that respect, you can be sure in many cases that they are or not working or paying taxes.

Just like white British chavs who have never earned a penny then?

Originally Posted by Ramrod

As I said, if they haven't been here long (as inferred by their dress and appearance) then they obviously can't have paid much (or possibly any)

Just like a white British 18 year old fresh out of college then?

Originally Posted by Qtx

Knowing that some people come to the UK for free treatment then go back home to India for example (where treatment is expensive) without paying NI, does annoy me. I know people personally who do this.

It's well known that this occurs but that's not what this is about. It's about people being (or rather, looking) 'foreign' therefore apparently not being entitled to free treatment.

---------- Post added at 16:43 ---------- Previous post was at 16:43 ----------

Originally Posted by denphone

Oh dear not another thread where some are voicing their prejudices and bigotness again.

Welcome to Cable Forum.

[Taf]

I know from personal experience how another EU country works for health: France.

You pay for all treatment, medication, even bandages and "special" food and drink.

They also charge you for sundries such as a TV/ radio/phone in your room.

You then have to claim it back from your "Mutuelle" insurance. For some things you get 100% back, for others only a small percentage.

Offer up a EHIC as a UK citizen, you have to pay E21 to see a doctor, E25 to see a specialist, you must pay for the ambulance, but you don't usually pay for emergency medicine or treatment.

E18 a day for outpatients and E18 a day for inpatients, plus 20% co-payment towards your treatment. But if the doctor or hospital is not a state healthcare provider (conventionné) you will not be able to claim ANYTHING back.

Plus if the hospital is "conventionne" but "secteur 2", they will not reimburse the extra that level 2's charge.

Originally Posted by Taf

I know from personal experience how another EU country works for health: France.

You pay for all treatment, medication, even bandages and "special" food and drink.

They also charge you for sundries such as a TV/ radio/phone in your room.

You then have to claim it back from your "Mutuelle" insurance. For some things you get 100% back, for others only a small percentage.

Offer up a EHIC as a UK citizen, you have to pay E21 to see a doctor, E25 to see a specialist, you must pay for the ambulance, but you don't usually pay for emergency medicine or treatment.

E18 a day for outpatients and E18 a day for inpatients, plus 20% co-payment towards your treatment. But if the doctor or hospital is not a state healthcare provider (conventionné) you will not be able to claim ANYTHING back.

Plus if the hospital is "conventionne" but "secteur 2", they will not reimburse the extra that level 2's charge.

and the French can come here and get it all FREE

---------- Post added at 16:58 ---------- Previous post was at 16:57 ----------

Originally Posted by denphone

Oh dear not another thread where some are voicing their prejudices and bigotness again.

the basement is very busy the forum would be pretty quiet and boring for those not looking for advice or giving advice without it

As far as I am concerned it could be closed tomorrow and then be just a tech forum and I would not miss it