Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Osem

.... and of course any suggestion whatsoever that certain crimes may be prevalent in certain communities is a sure sign of rabid xenophobia...

However i say what i see because i live in the real world.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Sirius

However i say what i see because i live in the real world.

Real world??? You mean the world in which no banana is too bent, a pound is as good as 454g, dead fish aren't thrown away by the tonne and the folks running the show are actually elected??...

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Osem

Real world??? You mean the world in which no banana is too bent, a pound is as good as 454g, dead fish aren't thrown away by the tonne and the folks running the show are actually elected??...

Now your going a little to far in to the world of Alice there

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Russ

Couldn't happen to a nicer country

Germany is (?was) a lovely place the last time I was there. Great food, friendly people & some beautiful scenery

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Damien

So basically even if a party that is right of centre and they advocate authoritarian policies then they are also left wing. So I can't really ever show an example of a right-wing administration enacting illiberal policies because they'll also be examples of a right-wing government that has moved left. You have again simply tried, wrongly, to equate authoritarian with the left alone. I cannot ever refute that because examples I give of authoritarian regimes on the right will be dismissed as socialism.

it's the endless preaching and do-gooder-ism that is slowly eroding people's rights.
Eat less meat
Eco-fascism
constantly introducing new laws and offences that curb people's freedom and rights to self-determination.
Constantly being told how to feel,what to say and how to act. Political correctness,a wonderful tool to control people without ever having necessarily enact any legislation.
I don't like gays... HOMOPHOBE!!!!
I don't want half the population in any given area not speaking English... RACIST!!!!!
maybe people need to look after themselves a bit more.... cold-hearted Capitalist!!!!
I could continue this list ad infinitum,the left loves to smear it's opponents with all sorts of nasty labels in order to control the gullible fools who follow them and their ideology,all in the vain hope of getting a chunk of the pie they couldn't earn themselves,too.
Funny how Socialists,the left and far-left go on and on about the need to share when it is always those who are supposed to share the most who also contribute the most.... it's just as well that lefties never question this all the while the party officials live in splendour and laugh at the gullible fools that follow them. The truth is the vast majority are worse off under socialists,except of course those who profit directly and those in power...

Labour bloated the state to proportions of absolute ridiculousness.... employed thousands upon thousands of people in non-jobs such as diversity co-ordinator,H&S officers and what not. The truth is for Labour it was all about being able to have a bit of the good lifestyle,as well. Let the champagne-corks fly,even better so as it is on somebody else's dime.... who cares? Once the party is over all e need to leave i a note saying: 'There's no money left',and then we can immediately attack the 'nasty party' for actually trying to sort the mess out.....

Best example? Those in power in east Germany were enjoying all sorts of products from the West,and indeed shop in their government district stocked mainly western products,all the while telling East Germans how the west was inferior and their enemy.... lol

Originally Posted by Damien

Socialist policies tend to concern themselves with the provision of services for citizens at the expense of higher tax. That's quite simplistic but it's generally the case. I haven't seen many socialists who advocate for a police state.

Please look at socialist states in history and name one that wasn't a police state.That's what socialism leads to in the end,it is always about controlling people,via the police,political correctness,the 'right'diet or otherwise. Socialists always know what's best for you,and much better than yourself,too!

Originally Posted by Damien

Indeed the more liberal organisations in this country are opposed to these measures. Usually they're called 'liberal do-gooders'. It's new to me that liberals are the ones who call for DNA and Internet databases, increased CCTV and secret courts.

So Labour didn't suggest everybodies DNA is kept on file,wether guilty or not?
http://southwark-libdems.org.uk/en/a...n-dna-database
so Labour didn't suggest people could be arrested for all offences?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3557266.stm
So Labour didn't create thousands of new criminal offences and filled our prisons to the brim?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ur-918053.html

yeah,lefties are really liberal....

I think you're mixing up your definitions here,the left is almost opposite of being liberal. Liberals love freedom whereas the left hate it because they can't control free people.

Originally Posted by Damien

Let's look at two examples. David Davies, a Conservative, and George Galloway a far-left liberal. These two agree on almost nothing but what does unite them is opposition to measures such as the Internet Database and ID Cards. This is because whilst their at opposite ends of the traditional left/right spectrum they're at similar ends of the libertarian/authoritarian spectrum.

You can be on the left and a libertarian and be on the right and authoritarian and vise-versa. Authoritarianism is not a result of socialism.

No,Galloway opposed this because of his liberal instincts,if he was just far-left he would have supported it. After all,the ID card scheme was dreamed-up by Labour,yes?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...pping-id-cards

just another cool £257 million spent on it,but hey,it's OPM,right? (other people's money)

Originally Posted by Damien

I didn't name you. I said people. It was Ramrod who said the left were responsible for the deaths of 100 million people.

no worries.

Originally Posted by Damien

America is interesting too. They've detained people without trial for years, they've tortured people, they've had wire-taps without warrants, they've reserved the right to kill people abroad. Are they now left-wing too?

No,and you have to show me where I suggested such tactics are the preserve of the left....

Originally Posted by danielf

Given your international perspective then, I'm sure that you will also agree that Labour (in essentially a 2 party state) is not necessarily the best or a representative example of left wing politics.

Labour is indeed the perfect example of left-wing politics.... state control isn't just DNA databases or police surveillance,it's the whole-sale control of thought and what is right or wrong.Anybody who dissents gets shouted down and/or marginalised. Amazing how quickly people forget how oppressive Labour were and how they decided what was 'correct and what wasn't.

Originally Posted by Damien

Which victims of which policies?

I want to know which policies exactly are responsible for the murder of 100 million people.

just look up Communism and victims of Communism,and look how it developed.Take a look at Socialist states.There you'll find the policies that end up in millions upon millions of people being miserable or dead.

It's funny,I've spoken to a good few people on my visits to East Germany and from conversations amongst the grown-ups I never heard a good thing about their oh-so-benevolent socialist government. (I was just 12 then)


For Britain's sake I hope we get a Tory/UKIP coaltion in 2015,or otherwise Labour will spend the last bit of the money we haven't got. All I ever see and hear in the press leads me to the conclusion that they haven't learned a thing and never will.

That's all.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Will21st

For Britain's sake I hope we get a Tory/UKIP coaltion in 2015,or otherwise Labour will spend the last bit of the money we haven't got. All I ever see and hear in the press leads me to the conclusion that they haven't learned a thing and never will.

That's all.

I hope for the same.

The way i see it is that if Labour get in they will sign over what is left of this counties independence over to the EU in exchange for a "Top Up loan" and use what is left of this country as collateral on a loan they will never be able to pay back.

We don't need labour or the libs in charge of this country ever again, its been ruined by them already..

Originally Posted by Will21st

So Labour didn't suggest everybodies DNA is kept on file,wether guilty or not?
http://southwark-libdems.org.uk/en/a...n-dna-database
so Labour didn't suggest people could be arrested for all offences?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3557266.stm
So Labour didn't create thousands of new criminal offences and filled our prisons to the brim?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ur-918053.html

Well I consider Labour authoritarian. Hence why they were disliked by a lot of leftist liberals like Galloway. The thing is the Tories pursue the same types of policies, secret courts, DNA and Internet databases. Yet another example of how authoritarianism is not limited to the left and therefore being 'left' doesn't mean you support increasing laws and erosion of civil liberties.

I think you're mixing up your definitions here,the left is almost opposite of being liberal. Liberals love freedom whereas the left hate it because they can't control free people.

No,Galloway opposed this because of his liberal instincts,if he was just far-left he would have supported it. After all,the ID card scheme was dreamed-up by Labour,yes?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...pping-id-cards

just another cool £257 million spent on it,but hey,it's OPM,right? (other people's money)

No,and you have to show me where I suggested such tactics are the preserve of the left....

So you can on the left and a liberal. Which is it?

the left loves to smear it's opponents with all sorts of nasty labels

Oh the irony.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Russ

Couldn't happen to a nicer country

Very nice country indeed,at least to many Brits who've actually been there.

Anyway,what Germany is experiencing now isn't pretty,and the UK will be hit with the same flood of gypsies come the end of 2014... oops,am I allowed to say this? I hope the left will forgive me.

There seem to be swathes of German cities,especially in the Ruhr area,where there are massive problems with Bulgarians and Romanians. Mostly on benefits and not even trying to get on with the locals. Begging,stealing and the back-gardens and streets turned into rubbish dumps.... I hope the wave can be stopped,but I doubt it.

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[dilli-theclaw]

I've still not seen a party I could vote for, still I've got some time to think it through I guess.

I WILL vote for someone however, but at the moment they all seem the same.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Will21st

Very nice country indeed,at least to many Brits who've actually been there.

Anyway,what Germany is experiencing now isn't pretty,and the UK will be hit with the same flood of gypsies come the end of 2014... oops,am I allowed to say this? I hope the left will forgive me.

There seem to be swathes of German cities,especially in the Ruhr area,where there are massive problems with Bulgarians and Romanians. Mostly on benefits and not even trying to get on with the locals. Begging,stealing and the back-gardens and streets turned into rubbish dumps.... I hope the wave can be stopped,but I doubt it.

Coming to a town and city near you very soon


Thank you EU

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well I consider Labour authoritarian. Hence why they were disliked by a lot of leftist liberals like Galloway. The thing is the Tories pursue the same types of policies, secret courts, DNA and Internet databases. Yet another example of how authoritarianism is not limited to the left and therefore being 'left' doesn't mean you support increasing laws and erosion of civil liberties.

So you can on the left and a liberal. Which is it? [/QUOTE]

Yes,he has left and he has liberal tendencies,and his opposition to those measures comes from his liberal leanings.... when it comes to Israel he is left-leaning and thereby anti-semitic in tendency. He can have both instincts in him,just like many people are walking contradictions.

Originally Posted by Damien

Oh the irony.

Yes,indeed,considering your support of a political leaning that relies on smear to fight it's enemies.

[danielf]

It would be funny if it wasn't so silly.

Originally Posted by Will21st

Yes,he has left and he has liberal tendencies,and his opposition to those measures comes from his liberal leanings.... when it comes to Israel he is left-leaning and thereby anti-semitic in tendency. He can have both instincts in him,just like many people are walking contradictions.

Yes, he has left and liberal tendencies. So do I by the way. This is because they don't contradict. You can be liberal and left wing. (Actually I would say I am more moderate on economic scale). This is the complex nature of politics where few peoples' ideals can be easily distilled into 'left' and 'right'. I think for example that people who need the social safety net should have that, that universal medical care is a good thing and that we have to pay for such a system from out taxes. That is the cost of living in a society IMO.

However I think you have the right to privacy, that laws should be limited and designed to protect people but maintain a right to freedom of expression. That the Government shouldn't impose moral laws (within reason).

There are probably individual policies I support or oppose that do contradict these broad beliefs but again, this is just one person trying to make sense of a complicated world with complicated problems. I cannot be characterised as 'left', that is just a crux for people incapable of thinking of politics or their opponents in anything other than the most simplistic labels. It's ok for broad statements, i.e Democrats' are left wing and Republicans' are right wing, but it breaks down quite easily upon examination.

Yes,indeed,considering your support of a political leaning that relies on smear to fight it's enemies.

It's ironic because that is what you've been doing in this thread. Consistently telling everyone what people on the left, i.e me, thinks and what our motivations are but you don't know me. I don't think I rely on smears to 'fight my enemies', not that I think of people that disagree with me as 'enemies', and I would hope other members on this forum that do think differently than me would vouch for that.

Yet on this thread we've had people describe the left as anything from wanting to control people to people responsible to the deaths of 100 million people. This is not a fair or rational way to describe an entire spectrum of political opinion.

It's no doubt true that people who ascribe to being socialist, or communist, have committed evil acts but as you've conceded previously such evil is not limited to the left. In fact I have argued that these acts represent a desire for control and order that stems from their authoritarianism and not their socialism. Additionally these acts and Governments do not represent the left anymore than the Westboro Baptist Church represents Christianity, Islamic Fundamentalism represent Islam or the BNP represent people concerned about Immigration. We are not automatically responsible for people with whom we share a common faith or political belief.

Anyway this is all me just repeating myself. I don't want to continue this thread because it just makes me angry and I don't like being angry. There are too many topics in Current Affairs that just upset me now so'll I bow out here.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Damien

snip

It's ironic because that is what you've been doing in this thread. Consistently telling everyone what people on the left, i.e me, thinks and what my motivations are but you don't know me.
snip

Ah,what a nice little parting shot straight for the heart,and just before you're bowing out,too.Well done. I thought we were discussing left and left-wing politics,not wether you support genocide,which by the by I never said.

Originally Posted by Damien

Anyway this is all me just repeating myself. I don't want to continue this thread because it just makes me angry and I don't like being angry. There are too many topics in Current Affairs that just upset me now so'll I bow out here.

Yep,run like the wind.... instead of getting angry you could of course bring in more arguments?

[Gary L]

Has anyone counted all the satellite dishes?