Antibiotic 'apocalypse' warning

I think a lot of this need for antibiotics stems from parents being told that children must be pristine clean at all times .When i was a kid dirty hands and pigeon muck weren't a problem ,if i cut myself so what ,i'll stop when i'm empty ,if i had a cold (very rare) it was a case of "get outside and play you need some fresh air" .

I honestly can't remember the last time i had antibiotics ,the same for my kids who where definitely not raised in a sterile environment.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Our Doctors are a waste of time to be honest, we have been told that the government has ordered all GP to save money by giving out drugs that are much cheaper.

My wife was prescribed a drug to stop stomach acid (aromprossle) and has now been told that this will be stopped and a cheaper drug given, her stomach acid rises into her mouth.

I was given a drug called ARDESAL for a stiff muscle, and this went on for months, then they tell me that the cream is useless and have given me a drug, that wont work as l am taking a cheaper drug that has serious side effects to the drugs that l am taking.

My chemist has told me that all GP's in my area all now belong to a company that sell the cheapest drug possible to make money for the practices.

Antibiotics are the same, some drs will not give them out anymore due to costs.

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

Our Doctors are a waste of time to be honest, we have been told that the government has ordered all GP to save money by giving out drugs that are much cheaper.

My wife was prescribed a drug to stop stomach acid (aromprossle) and has now been told that this will be stopped and a cheaper drug given, her stomach acid rises into her mouth.

I was given a drug called ARDESAL for a stiff muscle, and this went on for months, then they tell me that the cream is useless and have given me a drug, that wont work as l am taking a cheaper drug that has serious side effects to the drugs that l am taking.

My chemist has told me that all GP's in my area all now belong to a company that sell the cheapest drug possible to make money for the practices.

Antibiotics are the same, some drs will not give them out anymore due to costs.

Wondered how long it would take for you blame the cuts

[dilli-theclaw]

HHHnnn as most will know I've been in and out of hospital a hell of a lot this past couple of years - the only difference I've noticed with regards handing out of medication is that now I have to get it from a local pharmacy rather than the hospital one.

Which suits me the q is well over an hour at the hospital one

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Martyh,You cannot play around with peoples life's, if a patient needs a drug to prolong their lives then so be it. We read stories in the media where NHS Trust spend a fortune on wasteful things, yet when it comes down to important medicines they say they cannot afford it.

When l spent a week in hospital, the staff were absolutely brilliant, and they put me on drugs that l needed, yet l went to my GP for after care medication and they gave me the cheapest drugs possible, and even the chemist said said it due to cutbacks.I have paid into the treasury for the past 40 years and l expect to be looked after in my old age. I don't expect the gold treatment, but if this government spend billions of pounds in overseas aid, then we should be look after as well.

[dilli-theclaw]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

Martyh,You cannot play around with peoples life's, if a patient needs a drug to prolong their lives then so be it. We read stories in the media where NHS Trust spend a fortune on wasteful things, yet when it comes down to important medicines they say they cannot afford it.

When l spent a week in hospital, the staff were absolutely brilliant, and they put me on drugs that l needed, yet l went to my GP for after care medication and they gave me the cheapest drugs possible, and even the chemist said said it due to cutbacks.I have paid into the treasury for the past 40 years and l expect to be looked after in my old age. I don't expect the gold treatment, but if this government spend billions of pounds in overseas aid, then we should be look after as well.

By the cheapest possible do you mean they prescribe the generic rather than brand name for example

salbutamol instead of ventolin?

[Arthurgray50@blu]

What l am saying is that if a person needs a certain drug, then they should have it.

I get really fed up with people that say you cannot get everything, but if a person needs a drug to survive, then they should get a drug.

I was given a drug to replace my existing drug as it was cheaper, lets put it this way the side effect l had within an hour, my headed was spinning, l called my GP and he changed it to another product.

You cannot play around with peoples life. All GP's are there to spend as little as possible on drugs, my GP is within a group of GP's and they get there drugs within that group.

[Sparkle]

What people don't seem to realise that it isn't just a few resistant strains, its everything thats been exposed to the antibiotics, which have steadfastly been developing resistance. There are thousands if not millions of types of bacteria that will become just as resistant as MRSA, its only a question of time.
What strikes me is how despite Darwinian education, people don't seem to understand the basic principles of life and evolution.

For those who don't know, its very simple. For every type of bacteria that exists, no two cells are exactly the same, there is a small variation between them all. If you introduce an antibiotic (ie. penicillin) that kills every single one of them, then success ! You've stopped the microbial evolution in its tracks - you could do this for a million years and the penicillin would still be as useful as it was when it was first discovered.

The problem is, people are ignorant of nature.

Big business was keen to capitalise on the money grabbing potential so they just mass produced this antibiotic and sold it to everyone and their uncle. No restrictions, just a free for all money grab - and we let them do it.

Now back to how this evolutionary process works, in the example above - bacterial evolution occurs whenever there are *any* bacterial survivors. At first they might be damaged, have incurred injury but have managed to survive the antibiotic by the skin of their teeth. Then they divide into millions once again, and when then encounter penicillin this next time most will be killed off as before - but only this time the bacteria are a *little* more resistant and again there are survivors. Through this process they are writing the code into their genes that helps ensure their survival against an aggressor, in this case an antibiotic.

If this process continues indefinitely then eventually *all* of these pathogens will be 100% resistant to any antibiotic - its pure mathematics and a lesson in inevitability, you can't win unless you deny the bacterial the conditions whereby it can use its most powerful weapon - evolution. Bacteria can effect an evolutionary step in 20 minutes, a human needs closer to 20 years ! We can't win those odds unless we combat bacterial evolution every step of the way.

The major problem is that most people don't have the intelligence or inclination to understand this process. The above is the reason why the doctor says "FINISH THE COURSE OF ANTIBIOTICS!" That thus increases the likelihood that there will be no trace or very little trace of the original strain before it can be passed on to someone else, where it begins life a little more resistant than its predecessor. But of course patients know better, they don't finish the course of antibiotics because they are "feeling better now". So they end up allowing the surviving bacteria to spread, in classic "I'm fine, screw everyone else." fashion.

Its gets worse too, its seems that once one type of bacteria develops a resistance to an antibiotic - it can and does pass that information onto other bacteria so that they become resistant too.
So whenever antibiotics are prescribed, not only do you have the near unstoppable evolutionary process that occurs by the target pathogen, but also the evolution of other bateria that simply get caught in the cross fire (antibiotics enter the entire body, not just the small area of infection), you also have the risk of various strains of completely different bacteria swapping notes on how to kill us.

In all fairness, of course we could never 100% mitigate the bacterial evolutionary process in a way that would prevent antibiotic resistance, but we could've slowed it down.
Instead of it taking 25 years for the original penicillin to become ineffective against some strains, we could've stretched that out to say 100 years - to give us more time to advance our medical knowdedge.
The only variants of penicillin that are all effective are the derivatives which have been developed, but we've reached the point of diminishing returns. Its as if bacteria have reached the stage where they are saying "Penicillin and a penicillin derivative, pah! Seen one we've seen 'em all !"

And now it seems that things are very 11th hour, antibiotics don't wipe out bugs any more - they are always survivors that in many cases just lie dormant and will eventually be spread - so evolution is on to us BIG time and total antibiotic resistance is now inevitable. So, imagine life without antibiotics. Think how we will manage, this is our world we've left for the next generation onwards. Just think how they will forever revere us for our carefree attitude to our health, to our planet, and well, towards everything in life really....NOT.

All in the name of big business, big business interested in short term capital gain but not concerned with the long term consequences.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

A bit verbose but makes the point. We've let big industry destroy the promise of antibiotics for profit and now we reap the reward.

As far as reaping the rewards, we haven't seen anything yet. We're still living in the golden age of antibiotics. The next 50 years or so is when we'll begin to count the true costs of allowing our future to be decided by those interested only in lining their own pockets.

I posted the previous long post because this topic is one of the most misunderstood topics in human history.
How many times have you heard someone say "Just think of the millions of lives saved by penicillin."?
Well, there are now over 6 billion people alive today.
Had penicillin NOT been discovered until now, then yes millions would have died since the 1940's. But, it's looking increasingly that billions of lives would be saved in the next generations ahead of us...so arguably the discovery of penicillin and its carefree application wasn't such a blessing after all.

---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:12 ----------

Originally Posted by Taf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21178718

It's been waiting in the wings, often hospital wings, and now it's about ready to come out to play.

And how many millions will die? It could trigger war or major conflicts.

Not that that would be a bad thing overall.

Everything mentioned in that article has been known about for a very long time. Back in early 1997, I saw a documentary that talked all about antibiotic resistance, and that emergency action needed to be taken immediately, which never happened. The WHO puts out warnings about this threat ever few years, I know because I've read them (bear in mind they don't want to panic people). It seems the only "drastic" action being taken is to report on this problem as if its a new problem only just realised...

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

What l am saying is that if a person needs a certain drug, then they should have it.

I get really fed up with people that say you cannot get everything, but if a person needs a drug to survive, then they should get a drug.

I was given a drug to replace my existing drug as it was cheaper, lets put it this way the side effect l had within an hour, my headed was spinning, l called my GP and he changed it to another product.

You cannot play around with peoples life. All GP's are there to spend as little as possible on drugs, my GP is within a group of GP's and they get there drugs within that group.

Arthur, the generic is an exact copy of the the original drug, which is now out of patent.

[idiosyncratic]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

Our Doctors are a waste of time to be honest, we have been told that the government has ordered all GP to save money by giving out drugs that are much cheaper.

My wife was prescribed a drug to stop stomach acid (aromprossle) and has now been told that this will be stopped and a cheaper drug given, her stomach acid rises into her mouth.

I was given a drug called ARDESAL for a stiff muscle, and this went on for months, then they tell me that the cream is useless and have given me a drug, that wont work as l am taking a cheaper drug that has serious side effects to the drugs that l am taking.

My chemist has told me that all GP's in my area all now belong to a company that sell the cheapest drug possible to make money for the practices.

Antibiotics are the same, some drs will not give them out anymore due to costs.

If doctors are a waste of time then just stop going to see them, simple ...

As said above, cheaper drugs are often the same thing as a brand name version that is no longer covered by a patent - my blood pressure medication used to be branded as Diovan - now I'm prescribed the generic equivalent called Valsartan - it is exactly the same drug, but costs the NHS less.

It works both ways - I have recently been prescribed a new inhaler to control my asthma, I saw on the form how much it costs the NHS - over £45 for my £7.65 payment & the prescription is renewed every month. This presumably 'makes money' for the GPs....

Anyway, in an attempt to divert the thread away from 'money making' PCT groups of GPs & back to the subject, I thought Sparkle's posts regarding antibiotics were very insightful. It is just a shame that the research needed to try to find new antibacterial agents that are safe for humans is so expensive - and that the need to recoup that investment has contributed to the situation we now find ourselves in.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

What people don't seem to realise.... snip

Very well put.

Antibiotics in the UK were put under the control of doctors to try to prevent all this happening. But once the medication gets out of their control and into the hands of patients, it's inevitable that some will not complete their course and perhaps cause the evolution of another resistant strain.

In France it's another matter altogether. Doctors were dishing out antibiotics even when they would do no good at all, just because the patients would DEMAND them!

As said earlier in this thread, antibiotics are a double-edged sword that not only attack the "bad" bacterial infection, but also the "good" bacteria that live in our gut allowing us to absorb nutrients from our food. Kill them and the body can be deprived of nutrients the body urgently needs during an infection.

And another method the body uses to fight infection is fever. Raise the temperature and kill off a lot of "bad" bacteria. But what do we do? Take drugs to stop fever! OK, a high fever can be nasty, but low-grade fevers are our friends! We have evolved a fairly good immune system, and should allow it to at least TRY to heal us, instead of overriding it and allowing it to become "bored" and perhaps then start attacking healthy cells.

Another difference between France and the UK is that we rely on bactericides to disinfect, the French use good old bleach.

[Taf]

"If we don't take action, then we may all be back in an almost 19th Century environment where infections kill us as a result of routine operations. We won't be able to do a lot of our cancer treatments or organ transplants."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21737844

[dilli-theclaw]

Originally Posted by dilligaf1701

HHHmm I've been on antibiotics for more than half of last year and when I've been admitted on antibiotic drips.

I must admit I've been concerned about this for a while now.

....Just to add that I'm STILL on antibiotics since I originally posted this and my feet's infections are getting worse not better.

well I hate to say it and I obviously do not want to anyone I know or care about to be a victim but the human race needs a plague that will cut its numbers dramatically