Eurozone will collapse...

[Osem]

Workers across the European Union are staging a series of protests and strikes against rising unemployment and austerity measures.

Organisers of the strike are urging national leaders to abandon austerity and address growing social anxiety.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20320993

[Osem]

Germany's deputy finance minister has ruled out "eurobond-lite" plans to pool part of eurozone countries' debt.

Speaking exclusively to the BBC, Secretary of State Steffen Kampeter said "debt is a national responsibility".

"I don't see any strategies where we socialise and redistribute the bad political decisions made by some who are over-indebted."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18438402

That'll go down well in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy....

[Osem]

The French government has downplayed the importance of rating agency Moody's decision to deprive the country of its top triple-A credit rating.

Moody's downgraded France's debt from Aaa to Aa1, and kept its negative outlook, meaning it could be cut again.

Moody's blamed stalled economic growth, the risk of a Greek euro exit and the risk that France has to contribute to bailing out other eurozone countries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20407787

Don't suppose this has anything to do with it though:

For years it (France) has been losing competitiveness to Germany and the trend has accelerated as the Germans have cut costs and pushed through big reforms. Without the option of currency devaluation, France has resorted to public spending and debt. Even as other EU countries have curbed the reach of the state, it has grown in France to consume almost 57% of GDP, the highest share in the euro zone. Because of the failure to balance a single budget since 1981, public debt has risen from 22% of GDP then to over 90% now.

http://www.economist.com/news/leader...ime-bomb-heart

[Osem]

Thanks to Taf for this link (from another thread) which I think is releveant here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-policies.html

France's Socialist government was involved in a vast damage limitation exercise today after a senior minister admitted that the country was ‘totally bankrupt.’

Media spin, political pointscoring or truth?

Originally Posted by Osem

Media spin, political pointscoring or truth?

France's ability to finance their debt is improving since the Eurocrisis calmed down a tad. I wouldn't read too much into it, it seems like it's more a dramatic way of describing the current situation.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Osem

Thanks to Taf for this link (from another thread) which I think is releveant here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-policies.html



Media spin, political pointscoring or truth?

I don't care what stat there in as long as they don't drag us down with them.

[Osem]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21258272

The downturn in the Spanish economy worsened in the final three months of 2012, as output fell 1.8% from a year earlier, official data has indicated.

Output shrank 0.7% from the previous quarter - the worst performance in Spain since the 2009 global recession.

How long can this go on?

Must be slipping, I missed this one from a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...king-inflation

Germany's economy has shrunk in the last quarter, according to new data that is likely to force the Berlin government to slash its economic growth forecasts for this year.

The German Statistics Office reported this morning that Germany's economy contracted by 0.5% between October and December, as the financial crisis hit Eurozone's powerhouse economy.

This means that Germany grew by just 0.7% during 2012, a sharp slowdown that does not bode well for 2013.

Originally Posted by Osem

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21258272
How long can this go on?

I don't know. Guess we're asking the same questions of ourselves. At some point the economies have to recover.

[idi banashapan]

there's no recovery in sight. for anyone. even Germany is recalling it's gold (india has already done so, even recalling gold owned by it's citizens. but of course, we won't hear that in the news!!). buy gold now - the prices are only going up as the fiat currency we all adhere to and place value on loses the tiny meaning it has - saving money is pointless as it will lose it's value through inflation, then hyper-inflation, then collapse of the currency.

We will end up using a gold standard again, given a few years. the problem is, America don't want that. Their economy is so inflated now that is will crush itself any time. However, America doesn't want anyone using a gold standard as it will devalue their economy. We've seen it in Iraq when Saddam Hussain said he was no longer going to trade in Petro-Dollars - all of a sudden, the guy had WMD and America invaded. Gaddafi tried it too and was a massive advocate for moving to a single currency gold standard - look what happened to him. pattern? whoever controls the oil controls the currency it's traded in. (feel free to research this yourself on the internet. there's enough out there on it). Don't fall for the propaganda that the US 'liberated' the people. Libyans DID love Gaddafi. he did a lot for the people. here are some interesting facts that the BBC certainly wouldn't tell you about;

Libya and Libyan "dictator" Muammar Gaddafi:

1. Electricity is free for all Libyans.

2. Loans in Libya are free with 0% interest as banks are state owned.

3. Homes are considered a human right in Libya – Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi’s father has died while him, his wife and his mother were still living in a tent.

4. All newly married people in Libya receive US$ 50,000 by the government to buy their first home to help the new family.

5. Medical treatment and education are free in Libya. Before Colonel Muammar Gaddafi ruled the country, only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is around 83%.

6. If Libyans wanted to take up farming as a career, the government funded people from equipment to seeds, all for free.


7. The government subsidised 50% of the price of a new car if a Libyan citizen wanted to buy their first car.

8. Petrol price in Libya is around $0.14 per litre.

9. Libya has no debt externally and its reserves amounts to $150 billion – now globally frozen.

10. The Libyan government would fund anyone who got a degree and if they could not get employment, and they would receive income as if they were employed until they got a job.

11. The sale of Libyan oil is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens in proportion.

12. A family would get US $5,000 if they had a new baby to support the childs upbringing.

13. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs around $0.15.

14. 25% of Libyans have a university degree.

(http://gmiah.hubpages.com/hub/Was-Mu...y-A-Bad-Person and many other sources in differing formats)

if his people hated him, why was he driving around in open-top cars through cities right up until the Americans stepped in? Gaddafi always expressed his opinion that the people trying to kill him were NOT his own people. was he telling the truth? one thing is certain - it was about the oil, and the trading currency.

so, brace yourselves. give it 5 to 10 years, currency as we know it will be worthless (like it already is, really). The coins and paper we place value on is supposed to represent a receipt for a proportion of gold you own in a bank / reserve. the problem arises because it's become a fiat currency. it no longer relates to any gold. there simply is not enough gold in the world to pay out if everyone cashed in. the largest economies are now built on nothing at all. quantitative easing only makes it worse.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/...#axzz2JV8dmbir
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/...#axzz2JV8dmbir
http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/

Gold and a new gold standard WILL happen - it has to. but first, the current economic structure needs to completely collapse in an epic fashion....

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

[thenry]

well if thats true then they have opened up a mighty can of nutcases with arms in Africa. having said that the problems in Africa have been going on for a while now. it doesnt make sense. I remember reading somewhere Gaddafi was going to become President of Africa or was trying something to rise Africa? doesnt really make sense though as mentioned. Gaddafi could of surely done more if he was this great man in Africa? theres terrorists over there all sorts? the same sort that came after his head and arms? why didnt he kill them years before helping Countries like Somalia, Algeria, Mali etc. etc. ?

It's just conspiracy stuff.

Originally Posted by idi banashapan

The coins and paper we place value on is supposed to represent a receipt for a proportion of gold you own in a bank / reserve. the problem arises because it's become a fiat currency. it no longer relates to any gold. there simply is not enough gold in the world to pay out if everyone cashed in. the largest economies are now built on nothing at all. quantitative easing only makes it worse.

You're contradicting yourself. The notes and coins in your pocket are *not* supposed to represent a proportion of gold, because our currency is not pegged to the value of gold. This was a deliberate decision of government. A five pound note states that the Bank of England promises to pay the bearer, on demand, the sum of five pounds, but does not define what five pounds actually is.

A fiat currency has no hard value because it is intended to allow for non-tangible things, such as the time you spend working on something, to take on a monetary value. A specialised, industrialised economy with a developed service sector can't function with a non-inflatable commodity such as gold as its currency because you can't steadily increase the gold supply to pay all the people who do jobs that don't result in something being grown, manufactured or dug out of the ground.

A return to the gold standard would indeed signify a catastrophic collapse of the fiat system but in terms of economic development it would be a big step back, not forwards, and the aim must be to return to fiat currency as soon as reasonably possible.

The crisis in the Eurozone is a perfect example of what happens when a nation state loses control of monetary policy. Greece cannot do anything to influence the value of the Euro, which is held at a level favourable to the more productive economies in the North, principally Germany. Just as if it were reliant on gold, which to all intents and purposes is worth the same, everywhere, Greece cannot unilaterally devalue its currency to a level where its industries and its citizens can actually afford to use it. The result is grinding poverty while the Greek government, with a EU gun held to its head, performs what is euphemistically called an "internal devaluation", whereby the workforce is pressurised to breaking point into accepting massive cuts in their wages and their standard of living in order to allow the government and Greek employers to be able to afford to continue trading and paying wages in Euros.

[mertle]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ide-18bn-loans

seems santander in bit of hole as £18b loans turn toxic. Will this cause another shockwave in spains economy.

With news recently USA contraction I can only see worlds economy head for another big shock.

We got make people realise crony capitalism is destroying the financial system. We got too many who in rat race to stockpile enough money they could live for 300 to 400 years on it. It wont hit them they are the cause of economy ills until major businesses go belly up. I am talk companies like global companies like Sony. When they see that then might look in mirror think oh my god my money might be worthless if the system completely collapses.

With our latest news house prices rising again. Oh no has these idiots got clue in charge last thing we need is more property bubble.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...y-8475437.html

Welcome to next spain soon when it goes pop with toxic mortages people cant afford. We need to cap housing slowly bring it into the real world.

Originally Posted by mertle

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ide-18bn-loans

seems santander in bit of hole as £18b loans turn toxic. Will this cause another shockwave in spains economy.

Not very likely in this case. Any business that can see its profits fall by 60% and yet still walk away €2.1bn. in the black has got to be doing reasonably well, given the circumstances.

I think the worst is still to come in the Eurozone because the EZ governments and the ECB are determined to keep the patient on life support by chucking piles of cash at it, but sooner or later, maybe in one year, maybe in 3 or 5, the money will run out and they will then have to face up to the fact that EZ economic policy is making the problem worse and making recovery not just more difficult, but quite impossible. At that point it will royally hit the fan.

[Sirius]

Dam has it still not collapsed, "starts singing Why are we waiting"